Jo I Tsuba

[darthlaker]

Hi all,

 

Thoughts on this one please?

 

Real?

 

I love the design of it. Can't say I have seen anything like it.

 

https://www.trocadero.com/stores/ConservatoireSakura/items/1436210/Tsuba-sentoku-shakudo-argent-Oni-hunt-signed-Jo

[Spartancrest]

The design is reasonably common, The practice of bean-throwing during Setsubun originated from a legend in the 10th century, during the reign of Emperor Uda, that a monk on Mt. Kurama escaped misfortune by blinding oni with roasted beans. The Japanese word for bean, 豆, is pronounced mame, which can be written as 'devil's eye' (魔目), and some believe that the pronunciation is similar to that of mametsu (魔滅), meaning 'to destroy the devil', which is why people began throwing beans during Setsubun.

 

I am a little worried about the tagane-ato marks in the nakago-ana - - have they shifted any metal or are they just for show?

 

https://www.slam.org/search/423%3A1949/   Perhaps Steven King can show some more similar designs, he has an example himself. 

 

Going on some other stock from the same seller - https://www.trocadero.com/stores/ConservatoireSakura/items/1465170/Iron-tsuba-Soten-style-gold-inlay  I know this one is mass produced and not worth anywhere near the money they are asking! 

[darthlaker]

Thank you Dale for your input. Much appreciated and great to learn about the beans!

 

I have asked the seller if the item is papered.

 

I'll report back here when I learn more.

 

 

[Matsunoki]

2 hours ago, darthlaker said:

Thoughts on this one please?

Imo vastly overpriced and not great quality. I think they’ve had this one for a while.

[Jake6500]

My opinion is it is likely an authentic tsuba. It looks like later Edo work (as the listing says, 1750's onward seems plausible). Quality is good (although price tag isn't cheap!)

 

With regard to the tagane punch marks in the nakago-ana, my guess is that this has been inserted for beautification as a throwback to older styles. I don't think it is major cause to doubt the periodisation in and of itself. 

 

I think the biggest question for me is whether or not the mei on this tsuba is authentic or gimei, because I wouldn't even dream of paying the price I see listed on this thing unless it was a style + artist I was big on and I was absolutely 1,000% certain both the tsuba and the mei were authentic.

 

The mei appears to be referring to Sugiura Issando Nagaharu Jo-i, an artist active in the 1760's who often signed "Jo-i" or "Issando Joi". From a preliminary search about this particular artist gimei pieces are quite common so I would be trying to find verifiably authentic pieces and making some very close comparisons of both mei and style before purchasing.

 

One other concern is something about the linework in the tree on the Ura seems kind of modern to me and gives off a bit of a Meiji Period vibe. That said, I've seen marks like those underneath the tree in authenticated Hamano Shozui works from the 1750's so I still think 1750's is plausible.

 

Some other pieces purportedly by the same artist for comparison:

 

 

 

TLDR; Probably a real tsuba but might be gimei. Check style and signature extra carefully before buying. For me, I'd be wary just because of the price.

[darthlaker]

2 minutes ago, Jake6500 said:

My opinion is it is likely an authentic tsuba. It looks like later Edo work (as the listing says, 1750's onward seems plausible to me) and the quality is good (although the price tag isn't cheap!)

 

With regard to the tagane punch marks in the nakago-ana, my guess is that this has been inserted for beautification as a throwback to older styles. I don't think it is major cause to doubt the periodisation in and of itself. 

 

I think the biggest question for me is whether or not the mei on this tsuba is authentic or gimei, because I wouldn't even dream of paying the price I see listed on this thing unless it was a style + artist I was big on and I was absolutely 1,000% certain both the tsuba and the mei were authentic.

 

The mei appears to be referring to Sugiura Issando Nagaharu Jo-i, an artist active in the 1790's who often signed "Jo-i" or "Issando Joi". From a preliminary search about this particular artist gimei pieces are quite common so I would be trying to find verifiably authentic pieces and making some very close comparisons of both mei and style before purchasing.

 

Some other pieces purportedly by the same artist for comparison:

 

 

 

TLDR; Probably a real tsuba but might be gimei. Check style and signature extra carefully before buying. For me, I'd be wary just because of the price.

 

Thanks Jake so much for your input.

 

So if gimei would it still have probably be made in Japan and not a Chinese knock-off?

 

And if gimei made in JP what sort of value would you think would be fair?

 

 

[darthlaker]

4 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Imo vastly overpriced and not great quality. I think they’ve had this one for a while.

 

Thanks Matsunoki.

 

I still love the design of it. Very clever!

 

Wonder if there is an original of this somewhere then?

 

 

 

 

[Jake6500]

7 minutes ago, darthlaker said:

 

Thanks Matsunoki.

 

I still love the design of it. Very clever!

 

Wonder if there is an original of this somewhere then?

 

 

 

 

I still think it was made in Japan and likely is an authentic mid-late Edo Period piece. I don't think the quality is bad, but I also don't think it's spectacular. As Colin says, vastly overpriced. I wouldn't pay more than maybe 1/6th the asking price unless I was absolutely 100% certain the mei was authentic. When you compare it to the other examples I posted, I'm doubtful.

[darthlaker]

Just now, Jake6500 said:

I still think it was made in Japan and likely is an authentic mid-late Edo Period piece. I don't think the quality is bad, but I also don't think it's spectacular. As Colin says, vastly overpriced. I wouldn't pay more than maybe 1/5th the asking price unless I was absolutely 100% certain the mei was authentic. When you compare it to the other examples I posted, I'm doubtful.

 

Thanks Jake again for your insight. 

 

I guess I love the design of it......will keep you posted. Cheers

 

[Jake6500]

Just now, darthlaker said:

 

Thanks Jake again for your insight. 

 

I guess I love the design of it......will keep you posted. Cheers

 

The design is kind of interesting. The oni peering through the bars is innovative so I understand where the sentiment comes from, but $3600 USD is crazy! $600 USD is already probably more than I'd pay unless it came with certification.

[darthlaker]

Just now, Jake6500 said:

The design is kind of interesting. The oni peering through the bars is innovative so I understand where the sentiment comes from, but $3600 USD is crazy! $600 USD is already probably more than I'd pay unless it came with certification.

 

Yes, I agree re price...probably around USD 1K max. 

 

[Matsunoki]

Even IF the Mei was genuine I still wouldn’t pay anywhere near the asking price. 
Focus on the quality of the work…..it lacks finesse. 

 

[darthlaker]

Just now, Matsunoki said:

Even IF the Mei was genuine I still wouldn’t pay anywhere near the asking price. 
Focus on the quality of the work…..it lacks finesse. 

 

 

Yes, I am a beginner but fully agree.

 

I just think it's a cool design!

 

[Bob M.]

Hi,

 

Item No. 194 in the 'A Series of fittings ' thread  ( pinned above ) will give a comparison.

 

Regards

[Jake6500]

4 minutes ago, darthlaker said:

 

Yes, I am a beginner but fully agree.

 

I just think it's a cool design!

 

 

When you start out you tend to prioritise motif/design/theme more than quality. It takes at least about a year of deep involvement in the hobby before you start to develop the eye for quality. Honestly I am still developing my own. Your collection also starts off kind of random to start (at least, mine did). 

 

I recommend starting off just aiming to buy real authentic Edo Period pieces with designs you personally like, for reasonable prices. Aim to keep your purchases below 500-600 AUD at maximum when you start out and just focus on learning to discern real Edo pieces from casts or reproductions.

 

As time goes on you'll begin to get a sense for quality of craftmanship as well as materials and then you can start to save up for more expensive pieces.

You can get some very nice quality pieces for that price, believe it or not. The fuchigashira in my profile picture is one of my best pieces and I picked it up in an auction on Jauce for about $550 AUD. I've only very recently started spending more than that on higher quality pieces now that I have developed my eye a bit.

 

I also recommend using Jauce or a similar service to access Japanese Yahoo auctions as you can find great pieces there, often for better prices than direct from dealers or from Ebay.

 

Keep using and reading the forum frequently as it is a great source of knowledge and once you figure out what sort of style you like (which may take a while) start doing some online research and compiling examples of quality work in that style or from that school. Building something like a digital archive of pieces will help.

 

If you read the forum consistently, train your eye by looking through listings regularly and most of all are patient, you'll begin to develop a decent eye for quality and an ability to discern reasonable price ranges within a year.

 

 

[darthlaker]

Thanks Jake for the advice. It is a very helful community and they have helped my in my journey.

 

 

 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Sage counsel from Jake