Japanese sword maker translation

[AirborneA152]

I was wondering if anyone could please help me identify who might the sword maker be on this sword?

thanks,

Ron

[Peter Bleed]

Dude's name was KANEHIDE and he worked in Seki, which you can think of as suburban Nagoya during WWII.

Peter

 

[rebcannonshooter]

To add to what Peter said "SEKI KANEHIDE TSUKURU KORE"

Tom

[uwe]

“関兼秀造之” (Seki Kanehide kore o tsukuru)

[mecox]

@AirborneA152   Ron use the SEARCH on NMB for Kanehide.......some good info.  He was a top level smith.  兼秀 Kanehide (中田 勇 Nakata Isamu).

 

More info and context here:

 

[rebcannonshooter]

Hey Uwe,

I've I seen this translated "kore o tsukuru" like you said, I've also seen it translated as "kore wo tsukuru" and "Tsukuru kore wo", and also verbatim as its written on the tang, just "tsukuru kore". Is there a "preferred" reading? I really don't know which one is the most "correct" any more. What are your thoughts? Maybe some of the translators might weigh in?

 Any help would be appreciated, Tom

[Kiipu]

Try doing a search on the Japanese term kanbun 漢文.

About the correct translation of certain sword signatures

[Bugyotsuji]

Kiipu's link goes deeply into this and is a good read. There is of course a difference between the 'correct' way to write it, and the 'correct' way for us to read it.

 

The simple answer is that both tsukuru kore and kore (o, or wo) tsukuru are 'correct' in the sense that they are minimal readings of the inscription from which any Japanese would get enough meaning to understand. Listening Japanese would nod in understanding, even without a past tense. Kore wo tsukutta or kore wo tsukurimashita would actually be more grammatically fluent and correct, but would go beyond what is inscribed there.

 

Think in English for a minute. John make this, or John this make. Both convey simple meaning. But if you want to fully 'translate' them, you would adjust into the past tense and say, This was made by John, or John made this.

 

In other words, both Tom and Uwe are correct for a Japanese audience, or someone educated sufficiently in Japanese sword language. Remember, these are classical Chinese characters written with no Japanese endings on them, so we are left to guess how they relate to each other.

 

Thus, personally speaking, I do not think it matters much how we render the ending of such a signature; there is certainly no need to worry unduly about manners or correctness.

 

PS Your blade actually says 造之 'Tsukuru kore', reading the characters as they are. Kore wo tsukuru is a slight nod, or further step towards correct grammar, but is an interpretation, along the path of how to render classical Chinese into readable Japanese...

[rebcannonshooter]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the link to Markus Sesko's explanation. I had not seen this before! It was a good read, however, I had to smile when he wrote "But it is not as difficult as it seems..." because for me it is difficult! 

And Piers, thanks for your great response! So...."kore o tsukuru" as Uwe said is preferred.

Thanks to both of you for your input, Tom

[Bazza]

Bugyotsuji wrote:

>  PS Your blade actually says 造之 'Tsukuru kore', reading the characters as they are. 

>  Kore wo tsukuru is a slight nod, or further step towards correct grammar, but is an 

>  interpretation, along the path of how to render classical Chinese into readable Japanese...

 

Is the 'o' correct Japanese and the 'wo' a relic of 'old days' English scholar translations???  I don't remember 'wo' from my 3 years of trying to learn kindergarten Nihongo.

 

BaZZa.

[Bugyotsuji]

o is the correct pronunciation, BaZZa, but to me it looks strange in context, in English, so I tend to use the old Romanization 'wo' of を which is part of the 'wa (wi wu we) wo' line of the traditional Japanese alphabet. You are right to point this out and I need to sit back and ponder...

[Peter Bleed]

I fear that I might have been somewhat curt in my response to Thomas. Please forgive me.

When I happened across this post, Thomas had asked "if anyone could please help me identify who might the sword maker be on this sword." That is what I tried to do. I gave the maker's name  and added that the maker claimed a link to a place/group called "Seki". I also suggested that this sword was made generally around the time of WWII. The discussion that has followed may have brought back the trauma of my own Nihon-go classes. I would have said "saku kore"  because that is what is written. But - hey -  I learned from the very same texts that had been developed during the War and provided me with the ability to say useful  things like "Lets ask the Cop standing on that corner." Please remember, too, that Japanese classes - supposedly - had the highest suicide rates of any US military detachments.

However this signature might/should be rendered, I would encourage, Thomas to explore the wonderful research - done  in English by people active on this web community  - to begin studying about how and why swords were made during WWII --and before!

Peter