Real or fake?

[bloodycarrots]

I'm looking to buy my very first sword, and i don't want to get burned. 

 

https://rva-katana.com/products/antique-nihonto-late-muromachi-katana-in-koshirae-signed-hisayuki-unverified?_pos=17&_fid=2e79cd254&_ss=c

 

They claim it is an antique but, I cant be sure.

 

Any help is appreciated

[Matsunoki]

No offence intended but how much experience do you have in examining and handling Nihonto? Most of us in here would advise that you acquire a good basic knowledge before buying anything unless you absolutely know and trust the vendor.

Personally I would not buy this sword based on these images. The blade looks out of polish to the extent that you can’t even be sure it has a hamon or boshi. Other nasty problems might be lying in wait…..there are numerous flaws and issues that can spring unwelcome surprises. 
 

[bloodycarrots]

I’ve been doing research but when it comes to actually buying I have no experience, which is why I came here to ask questions. What all should I be looking for in order to spot a fake?

[Brian]

I know that RVA Katana are fairly respectable, I watch their videos and the guy seems like a nice guy, who often refers to @Ray Singer and seems to refer to Ray for advice/mentorship. Although they specialize in modern cutting swords (China etc) they do have some originals and seem very approachable.
The sword seems ok to me, a genuine Nihonto as far as I can tell. I highly doubt they would sell a fake, although approach ALL Japanese swords without papers as possibly gimei. That applies everywhere though, and the sword is still legit and antique.
Also, they mention a guaranteed buy back through Sohei swords for a lower amount, so maybe they have consigment from Sohei, but this is also a known and reputable dealer, and one of our members with a Dealer listing here.

[Matsunoki]

Well, great decision to come here first. We do see a lot of over eager first timers arrive here with their first treasure only to be hugely disappointed when they find out what they have bought. 
The sword in the images does not appear to be fake. It looks like an old blade that has been heavily shortened and is in poor condition…..it could be a total write-off…..impossible to tell.

Somewhere on this forum is a great thread dealing with fakes. Can’t remember what its title is but I’ll have a look. Doubtless someone else @Brian  @Scogg can quickly direct you there.

[John C]

Ouch...

[Scogg]

Agreed with Colin and Brian. It's a real nihonto... But I would heavily consider doing some research before spending 2k on a sword. You could buy this sword, and it will likely inspire a lot of research and learning for you, but after some time and some learning, you will likely become disappointed with it's current condition. For that money you could find a much better "starter" sword, in my opinion. 

I'd recommend buying the books: Connoisseur's book of Japanese swords by Nagayama
Also good for beginners: The Japanese Sword by Kanzan Sato (this was the first book that I started with)

Also, take a look at the forums awesome FAQ section, it's a great place to start: 
https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/faq/

Great link for spotting fakes:

https://www.jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

All the best and good luck,
Welcome to the forum!
-Sam

[Ray Singer]

28 minutes ago, Brian said:

I know that RVA Katana are fairly respectable, I watch their videos and the guy seems like a nice guy, who often refers to @Ray Singer and seems to refer to Ray for advice/mentorship. Although they specialize in modern cutting swords (China etc) they do have some originals and seem very approachable.
The sword seems ok to me, a genuine Nihonto as far as I can tell. I highly doubt they would sell a fake, although approach ALL Japanese swords without papers as possibly gimei. That applies everywhere though, and the sword is still legit and antique.
Also, they mention a guaranteed buy back through Sohei swords for a lower amount, so maybe they have consigment from Sohei, but this is also a known and reputable dealer, and one of our members with a Dealer listing here.

While I do not have any experience with this particular sword, RVA is run by John Kang which some of you may know from his social media channels (he is active on YT and IG). John is an honest seller, a nice individual to deal with, and I am sure that anything he has consigned for others (which appears to be the case here) is authentic and has been vetted.

Best regards,

Ray

 

[bloodycarrots]

Maybe a better question would be where should I go to find a piece? My budget for this one is right around $3500-4000. I’ve been looking all over (using the links provided here), but I’m getting a bit lost in the sauce. 

[Matsunoki]

Can you get to any of the amazing USA sword shows?…it’d be like all your birthdays came at once. Also is there a local sword club or society where you can gain experience and see things that are available with the massive advantage  of actually handling them first?

[bloodycarrots]

I don’t know if there are any sword shows near me. But based on google there are no dealers near me that I could visit. Closest is RVA which is over 4 hours away so that is a bit of a hike. Are there any events coming up in the Philadelphia, PA area or know of any dealers nearby?

[Scogg]

Any of the dealers from this website are trustworthy, and have good authentic items. 

https://swordsofjapan.com/ is Ray's website. He's got some awesome swords on there. If I had that much to spend right now, I'd snag that Tokubetsu Hozon papered Ko-Naminohira. 

I still highly recommend doing some studying first though. And Colin's advice of going to shows is great! There is one comming up in Chicago, and also Orlando. Another in San Fransisco early August.
http://www.chicagoswordshow.com/
https://orlandoswordshow.com/
http://www.ncjsc.org/SF_token_kai.htm

All the best,
-Sam

Edit: Incase you attend a show, this is really important info: https://swordsofjapan.com/nihonto-library/nbthk-etiquette/

Edited March 28 by Scogg

[Rivkin]

Unfortunately, it can happen that the seller honestly believes its Muromachi and its not. Is this the case? Hard to say. Its not the most typical sugata (straight), though sometimes one sees it in Muromachi, and sometimes such Muromachi blades are not in their original shape. Looks like it was untraditionally "touched up" to be more presentable rather than polished and as a result there is not much to see. Plus the light is directly from above, which flattens hada and emphasizes hadori, so it does not help. There is nothing Muromachi specific in what is shown in photos. The signature... Might be late Muromachi. Its not great calligraphy, and does not give out shinto vibes, but its not an exclusively koto soft shallow thin squarish writing.

Might be late Muromachi, might be something else. Hard to say.

[bloodycarrots]

What would be a good site or place for my budget, no more than $3-4K? Unfortunately i will not able to make any of those shows this year. 

8 hours ago, Scogg said:

Any of the dealers from this website are trustworthy, and have good authentic items. 

https://swordsofjapan.com/ is Ray's website. He's got some awesome swords on there. If I had that much to spend right now, I'd snag that Tokubetsu Hozon papered Ko-Naminohira. 

I still highly recommend doing some studying first though. And Colin's advice of going to shows is great! There is one comming up in Chicago, and also Orlando. Another in San Fransisco early August.
http://www.chicagoswordshow.com/
https://orlandoswordshow.com/
http://www.ncjsc.org/SF_token_kai.htm

All the best,
-Sam

Edit: Incase you attend a show, this is really important info: https://swordsofjapan.com/nihonto-library/nbthk-etiquette/

 

[Cola]

https://www.aoijapan.com/ is nice, if only to just gape at all different types of swords that you or I can't afford.

https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/index.html also has interesting swords in your price range.

They are both Japanese, so if you order from them you are at least sure it's not a chinese fake; you do have to send them by international parcel, which can be scary.

Ideally you also buy something with NBTHK papers, then you are as sure as you can be that it is what they say it is.

Without papers it could be gimei, ie. a faked signature, or if there is no signature it could be from an entirely different period or smith.  

[bloodycarrots]

3 hours ago, Cola said:

https://www.aoijapan.com/ is nice, if only to just gape at all different types of swords that you or I can't afford.

https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/index.html also has interesting swords in your price range.

They are both Japanese, so if you order from them you are at least sure it's not a chinese fake; you do have to send them by international parcel, which can be scary.

Ideally you also buy something with NBTHK papers, then you are as sure as you can be that it is what they say it is.

Without papers it could be gimei, ie. a faked signature, or if there is no signature it could be from an entirely different period or smith.  

I’m wary about buying from Japan. The long lead time and shipping this is not an insignificant amount of money. Have you done this? How was the experience?

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, bloodycarrots said:

I’m wary about buying from Japan. The long lead time and shipping this is not an insignificant amount of money. Have you done this? How was the experience?

The lead time from Japan is just part of the process as they have to get a license for export. However, if you go with a reputable company like mentioned above, your risk is exponentially diminished. That being said, the biggest risk is the shipping itself, as pirates working in the shipping hubs have made a dent in the market. The only way to combat this is to make sure that the retailer you purchase from has your package fully insured in case of loss. This problem with missing packages seems to me more prevalent in the EMS system, so if possible you may want to choose UPS, albeit considerable more expensive. 

Purchasing things from overseas requires more patience, but if you love the piece you are buying, it's worth the gamble IMO. I made a purchase last month and the package went missing. It was fully insured and am now working with the retailer to process the claim. Thankfully, of all the packages I have imported, this was one of the most inexpensive, so I am relatively unbothered, just a bit annoyed. 

[Natichu]

I would add Token Komachi as well, plenty of swords in more reasonable price range, and Ms. Tsukada is excellent to deal with and speaks very good English. She is also highly responsive to emails. English listings here:

 

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana.html

 

If you're following for updates of new additions, best to do so in Japanese:

 

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index.html

 

Yes, there is the concern around lead time from Japan, but it is what it is. 

[atm]

A number of the dealers mentioned have swords in your price range. Buying from Japan isn’t that scary as long as you understand there is a wait (about a month) for the expert permit to be issued and as long as the package is fully insured. I have bought several swords from Aoi Art, shipped via EMS, without any issues. RVA seems to get some of their swords from Aoi, too, based on the auction results. You can search the Aoi site by specifying your budget. You can also email them and ask what Tsuruta san (the owner) would recommend based on your budget. Same for contacting Token Komachi. I would stick with a blade with modern NBTHK papers.

[Cola]

3 hours ago, bloodycarrots said:

I’m wary about buying from Japan. The long lead time and shipping this is not an insignificant amount of money. Have you done this? How was the experience?

Yes, so far so good (knocking on wood). They can insure the shipment, and I don't mind waiting a few months. 

The most annoying thing is our local customs office, which asks import tax and VAT; which should be 9% antique objects, but sometimes they ask 21% for regular goods, and then you have to protest and prove that a sword is antique. 

[Lewis B]

49 minutes ago, Cola said:

Yes, so far so good (knocking on wood). They can insure the shipment, and I don't mind waiting a few months. 

The most annoying thing is our local customs office, which asks import tax and VAT; which should be 9% antique objects, but sometimes they ask 21% for regular goods, and then you have to protest and prove that a sword is antique. 

And in Germany even if you have that evidence you have to demonstrate a particular historical significance for the object eg a blade by a founder of a school or Gokuden. One way or another the gov gets their piece of the pie. 

[bloodycarrots]

New question. Does this price seem fair for what is on offer? Also, why is there a hard line on the tang of the long sword? Was that bit of metal added to the tang after the fact to lengthen it?

 

https://rva-katana.com/products/antique-nihonto-daishou-katana-early-edo-unsigned-and-wakizashi-late-muromachi-signed-bishu-osafune-sukesada-not-verified

[Natichu]

8 hours ago, bloodycarrots said:

New question. Does this price seem fair for what is on offer? Also, why is there a hard line on the tang of the long sword? Was that bit of metal added to the tang after the fact to lengthen it?

 

https://rva-katana.com/products/antique-nihonto-daishou-katana-early-edo-unsigned-and-wakizashi-late-muromachi-signed-bishu-osafune-sukesada-not-verified

While I'm too new to say in terms of the blades (which to me look somewhat tired/out of polish), I have to imagine you're going to be paying a significant premium for daisho koshirae even if it's only of middling quality (not saying this is a true daisho obviously, but rather a matched set of koshirae). Is that where you'd like to allocate your funds? No problem at all if it is, but I think it's just important to be aware of where the money is going to ensure you're getting the best bang for your buck. 

 

So to me the more important question (something I'm constantly trying to ask myself) is what is it that you want to buy, and why does this option fulfill whatever criteria it is that you've set? 

 

I think the usual advice to us beginners is to take our time, develop our knowledge base and delve into some specific areas of interests, and buy to further those interests. 

 

If all you want is antique blades in koshirae for an ok price, that isn't a problem or anything to be scoffed at. With hobbies sometimes it's nice just to feel like you have a bit of skin in the game, learn what you can, and see where that takes you. But I think it would help the more knowledgeable people here (read: definitely not me) in giving you advice to understand what it is you hope to get out of making a purchase. 

[Geraint]

Dear Srinivas.

 

Just to address your question directly, the hard line in the nakago is a demarcation between the earlier shape and finish of the nakago and the shape and finish of the latest suriage.  Sometimes when a sword is shortened the thickness of the nakago needs to be adjusted, in this case the smith has filed the nakago above the line but chosen to retain the earlier patina below the line.  Of itself nothing to worry about and not an indication of an added nakago.

 

All the best.

 

 

[Robert S]

Buying any nihonto with active red rust on it carries some risk, as the total depth of corrosion is sometimes hard to tell.