A very attractive tachi.. can it be kamakura?

[hudomeld]

Hello all, 

Recently i purchased a tachi..

It is signed but i think it is irrelevant at first.. later on i will reveal it of course..

Nagasa 75cm

Ubu nakago

Blade 29mm and 19mm at kissaki

Thickness 7 and 5mm

At this point i really would appreciate your experienced oppinion about the age from the sugata, jihada and jigane as well as hamon..

 

Many thanks in advance 

David

[Ray Singer]

I would have thought this is an ubu shinshinto blade. 

[oli]

hi, 

 

why do you think it's from kamakura period? For me it looks like shinto or shinshinto. Is there a signature on the nakago?

 

regards

Oli

[Bugyotsuji]

Oli, he said it is signed but he is not going to show us yet. You can see 造, but above that he has blanked it off.

[hudomeld]

Sorry for hiding the mei..

I really did not want to have the blade judged by the mei..

Myself i think it is no way the Moriie mei could be authentic..

I also did not buy it because of the mei..

 

[oli]

hmm like a small kantai?

The nagasa and sugata trends into direction shinshinto. Ubu Kamakura blades have a different sugata and are hard to find or get. 

Example: https://www.aoijapan.net/tachi-moriie-hatakeda/

[hudomeld]

I really dont know where to position it..

For my -completely untrained- eyes the nakago looks older than shinshinto

forgot to mention the sori is 2,6cm

[hudomeld]

[Jacques]

A bad gimei of Moriie who was a great Kamakura Bizen Smith (Saijo)

[oli]

the pictures aren't the best. Yes maybe late muromachi or early shinto. But for kamakura its looks too good.

[hudomeld]

Thats what i thought too.. for kamakura.. it is in a too good shape

[hudomeld]

As far as i read not many Moriie gimei out there...

[hudomeld]

Not as i would want to proof that the mei is authentic.. but it is not looking very freshly made..

Or am i completely wrong..

[Brian]

Yeah, but remember that they have been doing gimei for hundreds of years,.

[hudomeld]

Of course i have that in mind.. 

I am currently wondering if a sec. Or third gen. Moriie in the post hatakeda times could possibly have forged the blade and in this case the mei could be so called authentic..

Sure.. not for hatakeda..

You probably saw some mei in your life.. from the nakagos overall appearance.. does the mei match the period when the blade was forged or do you see it as beeing signed later..?

[oli]

Do you want to know, when this gimei is made? 

[oli]

here is an interesting article about gimei  https://markussesko.com/2019/12/31/kajihei-鍛冶平/ 

[Rivkin]

shinshinto, not the first tier smith influenced by period's Bizen school - Yokoyama and Chounsai. Poor quality jigane (100% dense).

[Lewis B]

Genuine Kamakura era Mei (1st generation), although there were later generations also signing Moriie well into the Nanbokucho period. 

 

[hudomeld]

Ray, Oli and Lewis.. thanks for the reference mei

Although for me they look completely different

[hudomeld]

Rivkin, not so dense at all, 

Just forgive me for my bad photogarphic skills with my old phone.. other than that it looks like the polish is not a perfect job, it hides a lot of the jigane structure.. at least on the photos.. i have to admit that

[Jacques]

52 minutes ago, oli said:

here is an interesting article about gimei  https://markussesko.com/2019/12/31/kajihei-鍛冶平/ 

Kajihei is a special case, but it's worth noting that while gimei have always been made, many of those found today were made recently, and are called gendai gimei.

[hudomeld]

According the difference in gimei and gendai gimei signatures..

Please tell me that mine is not a gendai.. that is probably the only thing i really hope for

[oli]

3 minutes ago, Jacques said:

Kajihei is a special case, but it's worth noting that while gimei have always been made, many of those found today were made recently, and are called gendai gimei.

yes you a right, i only wanted to mention how a faker work and how they fake nakago and signatures. 

[Franco]

One more opinion,

 

Shape suggests a Muromachi period sword. The question then becomes; is it truly a Muromachi period sword or an elaborate Shinshinto copy?

 

7 hours ago, hudomeld said:

Nagasa 75cm

Ubu nakago

Blade 29mm and 19mm at kissaki

Thickness 7 and 5mm

 

What is the kasane at the widest point of the nakago vs at the mune-machi?

What does the ko-shinogi look like from above?

 

To my eye the ji-tetsu looks more Shinshinto as does the nakago patina vs Koto.

 

"Too good for Kamakura."  Hmm.

 

 

[hudomeld]

So.

The nakago widest kasane is 7.2mm

The mune kassane 6.9 or 7mm

Some photos attached..

[Rivkin]

5 hours ago, hudomeld said:

Rivkin, not so dense at all, 

Just forgive me for my bad photogarphic skills with my old phone.. other than that it looks like the polish is not a perfect job, it hides a lot of the jigane structure.. at least on the photos.. i have to admit that

 

Different light direction can really affect hada appearance, but still I see the hada which is coarse with visible lamination in places, but otherwise has this dense, grey look... No color changes, utsuri, no ji nie, just greying itame.

Nakago can be late koto, sugata can be late koto, but this very distinctive periodic choji gunome, each having exactly the same very solid and single tone, but relatively bright appearance - does not look like koto. Its a shinshinto style and something that quite a few practiced at the time. Same about hada, I don't see the variety one expects from koto, to me its more modern.

[Franco]

6 hours ago, hudomeld said:

The nakago widest kasane is 7.2mm

The mune kassane 6.9 or 7mm

 

Not polished down much. Certainly not what might be expected of an earlier Koto period sword. 

 

At this point my thought is a Shinshinto copy. 

 

Thank you for the additional information and images. 

 

 

[hudomeld]

The blade has/had sashikomi polish.. but it looks like someone went on it again with some untraditional way aiming for the seen mirror like finish.. after that brought back the ha and hamon with kesho polishing...

We will start now with the refreshing of the sashikomi polish.. and probably a mei investigation in the shinto, shinshinto era.

Will see..

Many thanks for all your kind answers. Will keep you posted if anything nice or intresting comes up..

Regards

David