Love when this happens- need signature confirmation help for menuki

[Mantis dude]

Hi all,

 

So anyone that wins an auction waits for the package to arrive, hoping it is what they thought when bidding on.  I received a menuki set which I liked the looks of and was a design I didn't have anything similar too.   That alone was reason enough to be excited by the set.  When I received it, I just gave it a quite look over, liking the looks of it and it seemed like I made a good buy.  I placed it on the side for further analysis.  So I finally got the old lighted magnifying glass out, looking at it under magnification.  As I was turning it around, I came to the bottom of the menuki edges and something caught my eye.  As I played to get the best light on the area I got very excited.... There is a kanji character there.  "Is this piece signed?", I said to myself.  I quickly grabbed the other piece looked at the bottom and had to play a lot with the light to see, yes there is another kanji character (each menuki had 1 character).  Now this is a pleasant surprise!  The auction description made no mention of it being signed, claiming it was older momoyama to muromachi period. 

 

Next task decipher it.  I am pretty sure I got the 1st kanji correctly as "hide".  The second kanji was much harder to find.   Just seeing it clearly was an issue, struggling to get the light right so I could see the entire character.  The biggest issue is that the space on the menuki is only 2.5-3mm, pretty small area to punch a character in too.  I believe after a long while of studying that the 2nd kanji is "oki".  together it is a menuki set possibly signed "Hideoki", a Student of otsuki mitsuaki.  The design would fit the school - not posting entire set but you can assume it has 1 particular insect.... hmmm which one... perhaps a mantis, along with a butterfly and cricket.  I could have sworn I saw a similar set in a book but can't find the picture.  So what do you guys think?  Here is a photo of the bottoms along with the kanji (what a pain to get a picture taken).  Appreciate any help or comments.  thanks.

Ken 

[Matsunoki]

I love stories told  like this. Can’t help with the Mei - but well done. 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Full frontal pics please 😏

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

Full frontal pics please

I am sure there is some law against that now! [I hope you are not a "groomer"]  

[Mantis dude]

At least take me to dinner first.......

 

I knew more pics would be requested.  At some point, I'll post them.  Above mei pic, far left is shakudo mantis with gold butterfly at the top.   Right is a cricket done in suaka (?not sure)

[Jack Zacao]

The first one is ‘秀‘

second not known, does not look like any Chinese character to me, maybe a Kao

[Bugyotsuji]

Just playing with 為秀 and 秀為

Tamehide, Hidetame, Hidei, Shūi etc.

[Mantis dude]

I was so excited I thought I cracked the code but it might help take you through my thought process and see if you can see it like I do:

 

This breakdown is just for the 2nd character - "hide" I think is fairly straight forward.  Anytime I see dots at the bottom I automatically think kuni (i know there are others but it usually a good starting point).  But that wasn't fitting.  One of the things I was struggling with was holding the damn menuki in gloves to just see the kanji.   Really required good lighting otherwise lines disappeared- remember this is a very tiny area.  But when I got the correct lighting I could see very discrete marks.  They were placed with purpose.  So the 2 marks at the bottom, I thought are 2 marks not 4, eliminating all those variations.  Getting no where, I was just looking through Haynes signatures when I came across Hideoki.  I thought the design was plausible for school although I didn't research it- insects are a school theme (i know I owe a whole photo).  So I went and looked up hideoki in toso kodogu meiji taikei by Wakayama.  Here are some random examples from the book which was the lightbulb moment as you will see (i hope).  If you look at sig ex3 I circled the area if you removed would look a lot like my signature.   I think since the space was so small, the smith used a "/" at the top of left straight line down of the "steps" to indicate the far left line.   The formal signature was no help but looking at how they actually signed made the difference to my eyes.   now what do you think of my code cracking?

 

[Jack Zacao]

i still think it is a Kao, until you find the character to convince me. 

[Bugyotsuji]

2 hours ago, Jack Zacao said:

i still think it is a Kao, until you find the character to convince me. 

You mean Hideoki 秀興, Jack?

[Jack Zacao]

Thank you Bugyotsuji, I get it now. Congrat to Ken for figuring that out. I found the artist name in a book below. But, the quality of the signature on the menuki seems worse than the reference by a bit. you would have to judge the quality of the carving on the front to see if it lives up to the name of this known artist. Anyway, enjoyed your research so far!

 

[Mantis dude]

Thanks Guys for your input!  It always seems when I translate I looked at it and go "I think I recognize that, it should be easy to decipher".  But I am always wrong and it takes a lot of work or luck (I am not nor have I had any formal training in Kanji- should have learned how to write properly).   I do and try and hand copy it which helps sometimes, makes you pay attention to the cuts, shape of punches, etc.  Not studying stroke orders is a handicap in this endeavor.

 

Moving on- First off, I have to correct a mistake I usually assume 4 dots at the bottom is Kane not Kuni as a starting point- mistyping on a post just stares at you in the face and taunts me, although we all mistype.  Jack, I apologize, I wasn't understanding what you were asking for and I should have posted the kanji earlier (Thanks Piers). 

 

The validity of the mei is a whole other subject and with this small an area, I know it is more likely to have variation.  And as you stated, the piece should validate the mei, although as humans we usually swap that.  Anyway, here is the set.  I haven't done any real research in the school yet so comments are appreciated.   The excitement of finding kanji took over! It was listed as momoyama- muramachi time frame but I think it is later.

  

 

Thanks you for all your input or just viewing.  Any input is always welcome, even disagreements are good.... well depending on how we disagree but personalities never clash here (Brian just shook his head).

Ken

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

I was watching that set too @Mantis dude - I wasnt sure how commonly different types of metals (Yamagane for the cricket and shakudo for the mantis) were used for a paired set and was doing research on that.  Looks like they are indeed meant to be together - congrats!