Sword Identification Request: I could use help identifying this sword please.

[NinjaBear]

I work for a pawn shop and this sword walked into my store. Its in rough shape, but generally serviceably I'd say. I would love to own one of these for myself, but I don't have the resources to pay for one of the hand made swords but this one might be my entry into owning one of these historical swords. I have to make an offer to the seller but I dont have a clue even where to start for pricing it. I figure Identifying it would be the start.
But, I don't know how to identify them. I took apart the handle when I first got it in, it does not have any engraving so I assume it's manufactured.

Outside of that, I'm pretty clueless. 

[NinjaBear]

Here are a couple more images.

[Conway S]

Hi Anthony,  

 

See the attached thread below. This sword may not be of Japanese origin. It’s possible it falls in the category of “island sword.” It could also be post-war Chinese fake too.  If you are looking for a genuine WW2 Japanese sword, I would save your money.  

 

Conway 

 

 

[lonely panet]

Run fake

[dwmc]

Agree with Hamfish, too much wrong with this sword to be authentic wwll Japanese...

[Bruce Pennington]

Anthony,

These are interesting, to me.  They have age, like really from WWII.  But they are Chinese-made, as evidenced by a few things, like the guys said above.  One of the more easy to see tells is when the folds of the handle wrap are all folded in one direction.  Japanese make the folds alternate one way, then the other.  Chinese craftsmen fold them all in one direction.

 

A lot of obvious fakes have really poor craftsmanship on metal parts, and the tang.  The swords with better work, like this one, make me wonder if they were made by occupied Chinese craftsmen for their own collaborative forces.  But there is no way to know.

 

At any rate, it's Chinese work, attempting to look like a Japanese military weapon.  

[NinjaBear]

  On 3/15/2025 at 1:28 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Anthony,

These are interesting, to me.  They have age, like really from WWII.  But they are Chinese-made, as evidenced by a few things, like the guys said above.  One of the more easy to see tells is when the folds of the handle wrap are all folded in one direction.  Japanese make the folds alternate one way, then the other.  Chinese craftsmen fold them all in one direction.

 

A lot of obvious fakes have really poor craftsmanship on metal parts, and the tang.  The swords with better work, like this one, make me wonder if they were made by occupied Chinese craftsmen for their own collaborative forces.  But there is no way to know.

 

At any rate, it's Chinese work, attempting to look like a Japanese military weapon.  

Expand  

Thank you for the feedback. 
It makes me wonder the quality of the steel. I notice there is no hamon so definitely not hardened the same way we are used to seeing on Japanese swords, but I assumed maybe they didn't do that with manufactured swords. But it definitely does appear aged. I agree, like WWII age, not just made to look old. 

Were there Chinese made fakes in that same time frame? I'd like to offer the owner any information I can. I informed him that I believed it to be not authentic after reviewing that thread above, but he claimed that the story was that his uncle acquired it in WWII and that it was never modified or left his care. So if the Chinese made these fake ones in the same time frame, then his story can be true, as well as the evaluation of them being not authentic.

[Scogg]

I'm not super familiar with the hanger chains or how to identify fakes,

But determining if that's a genuine chain could help piece together some of the story for the owner. These swords are mysteries... We know they aren't Japanese, likely Chinese, but that's about it. The chains on the other hand are better documented; and can be worth a pretty penny on their own. 

Just looking for the silver lining for the owner,
Cheers,
-Sam

[Bruce Pennington]

John - @PNSSHOGUN - might be able to help with the belt hanger question.  Good idea Sam!

 

Anthony,

I've never noticed a hamon or temper line on the blades made in occupied areas.  This blade has a properly shaped blade tip, where fakes are mostly more angled.  The nakago (tang) is finished much more that the standard fake, and the details of the metal work of that kabutogane (end cap on the handle) are quite good.

There were stories of the Australian troops making fakes during the war and stories of cheap fakes being sold in occupied Japan, so they did exist that far back.  But the faking industry that cranks out the junk we normally see came much later.

 

That problem with age is that the fakers have gotten quite good at creating fake aging.  Sometimes there are telltale signs one can spot, but it's not something I've worked at getting good at.  I can't see anything that would cause me to doubt the age on this one, though.  Having it in hand is often the best source of examination.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The chain hanger looks far too flimsy to be an original.

[NinjaBear]

  On 3/16/2025 at 2:42 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

John - @PNSSHOGUN - might be able to help with the belt hanger question.  Good idea Sam!

 

Anthony,

I've never noticed a hamon or temper line on the blades made in occupied areas.  This blade has a properly shaped blade tip, where fakes are mostly more angled.  The nakago (tang) is finished much more that the standard fake, and the details of the metal work of that kabutogane (end cap on the handle) are quite good.

There were stories of the Australian troops making fakes during the war and stories of cheap fakes being sold in occupied Japan, so they did exist that far back.  But the faking industry that cranks out the junk we normally see came much later.

 

That problem with age is that the fakers have gotten quite good at creating fake aging.  Sometimes there are telltale signs one can spot, but it's not something I've worked at getting good at.  I can't see anything that would cause me to doubt the age on this one, though.  Having it in hand is often the best source of examination.

Expand  

Thank you for the added insight! I guess its still got some question marks then. I gave the info I could to the guy who owns it. I think I've gotta go with probably not real and move on. 
 

  On 3/16/2025 at 11:50 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

The chain hanger looks far too flimsy to be an original.

Expand  

It didnt have some of the decorative stuff like I had found online. I dont know about flimsy but it seemed more basic than what I had seen.

[Kiipu]

  On 3/15/2025 at 2:38 PM, NinjaBear said:

but he claimed that the story was that his uncle acquired it in WWII and that it was never modified or left his care.

Expand  

 

I would ask the owner what branch of the service his uncle was in during World War 2.  Many are unaware that after the war American troops were stationed in China and they brought back many Chinese made items as war trophies.

[NinjaBear]

The owner of the sword came back in today. He asked if I would still buy it for myself. I thought about it and said "50 bucks?"
He agreed. 

So, I figure, it's not an authentic Japanese sword, but its not a cheap amazon Chinese sword. 
From what it sounds like, this still very well could be 80 years old and from the other side of the world, which in its own way is kind of cool to me. I don't think I wasted 50 bucks? 

Who knows, still I find it interesting.