16 century of Japanese antique pistol

[aaron sun]

Antique Japanese pistol (not sure if this
Isnthe right place for this)

Hello all

Purchased this as a decorative piece of art 

The more I researched, the more I felt it might be the real deal, a 16th century Japanese pistol for horseback and quite rare 

I found a near identical in a museum
Stating so :

 

https://www.touken-world.jp/search-arquebus/art0002400/

 

 

Looking for some expert opinion on this 

Thanks

[Bugyotsuji]

It's a puzzle. Safest to call it a decorative piece, Aaron. There are too many similarities with the one you link, making me suspicious. Could it be the same gun even? Of course they are rare, but you almost never see two exactly the same, and they vary widely. If it's a copy it's very well made.

 

The Token World Japanese explanation seems to say it may have been cut down from a cavalry pistol. Or shorter pistols from the Edo Period were cut down versions of earlier guns? The English translation of the same Token World page is also a little unclear. But my first thought on seeing your gun was that it has been cut down. Why these coincidences?

 

As to your gun, it looks mostly good, actually, but the parts suggest strongly it is from the Edo period. Hardly any guns of any size at all exist from the Sengoku period.

 

As I say, safer to call it a decorative piece in the meantime. I am not asking exact figures, but did you pay a lot for this? There are things I would like to see before making a definitive statement! And remember that the people at Token World are learning too!

[aaron sun]

Hello

 

Thank you for your informative reply 

 

I did some comparisons and they are not the same ones. 
 

the wood on left side of the barrel of my gun has some old breakage and  the part covers the powder( I didn’t know the proper name) is broken also  (the one from the link attached at the very bottom

also, the wood aren’t exactly the same 

 

As an Asian collectors(Chinese and Japanese),  handling it tells me that it has legit age, how old , whether it is cut down or not , would have no clue. 
 

there is a “九十四” mark I just found and not sure if there is any significance 

 

thank you again for your input 

 

best regards 

 

Aaron 

[aaron sun]

The one from the gun in the link and mine (broken tip)

 

[Brian]

Looks old to me, I don't think it's a repro. But it could easily be cut down from a longer gun or rifle. Seems to have been a pistol for a long time based on the wear etc, but not sure it's worth much more than a rifle in that condition. Let's just say I would be happy to own it if the price were right, parts all seem legit.

[aaron sun]

Thanks Brian 

[Bugyotsuji]

Try sending these photos to the museum at Token World. It would be interesting to see if there is a series number under the pan cover there. Looking at that shinchu bead front sight... Could they both be part of a series? (But surely not over 100 of the same pistols produced!)

 

From your newer photos I can see this barrel has some age to it, certainly not the end of Edo, and maybe even 17th century, early Edo. Take good care of it!

 

PS Have you checked under the barrel for a name?

[aaron sun]

I don’t really know how and don’t want to damage it anyhow 

 

would it be similar to open an western musket ? If yes, I can check around to see if there is any antique gun expert to check  it out for me. 
 

I will try to send the photos to the museum, the site is in Japanese and I will do my best to describe it

 

the museum one does say” unsigned”, so if they are from the same series, it wouldn’t be signed 

 

the number “94” has significance if the other one also has similar numbers 

 

thanks again 

[Bugyotsuji]

They speak and write English in the guns floor there at Token World. 

 

There is a sticky on this site on how to open a Tanegashima.

It looks like your mekugi pin is missing, so just pull back the serpentine a little and gently lift out the barrel. It may be rusted into place, though, needing a few taps with the back of the hand or a rubber mallet. Part of the stock at front has split off, also not uncommon as the wood shrinks against the iron.

 

PS I wrote 400 but have since changd it to 100, still an exceedingly large number for a pistol. See if you can find 94 anywhere else inside. If not you may have to entertain the idea that the pan cover comes from a different gun. (Not the end of the world.)

[aaron sun]

Wow, that was easy, it came off nice and easy and my gosh, talk about craftsmanship!

 

There are two chiseled marks on the barrel and some ink writing on the wood stock

sure looks matching and original to me at this point 

 

it got better, from the online picture, the museum copy has a number “32”

in the exact same style(picture added below)

 

so excited !

 

 

 

Edited March 14 by aaron sun

[John C]

4 hours ago, aaron sun said:

some ink writing

Aaron:

I think the writing could be a stylized 94 like the rest of the parts. Nice find, whatever it turns out to be.

John C.

 

[aaron sun]

So all 3 numbers are matching “94” then.  
 

 

[aaron sun]

Did some measurements also 

 

Here is a summary, compared to the museum piece:

 

length :  38.1 CM vs 37.7 CM

Barrel:  22.7 CM vs 21.3 CM

Mark: “94” vs “32”

 

I guess my gun is tiny bit bigger,  though very similar, not identical 

 

another photo of the Barrel, it looks the marrowest part is where the pin-hole is, not the very tip, however so slight.  Would this help rule out the Cut-down?

 

Thank you all

[Bugyotsuji]

An interesting story, and I now believe this is a good example of a fairly early Edo period matchlock pistol, perhaps originally one of a batch order. You can make a ramrod to complete the package! 

[aaron sun]

 Given the identical design and look with the Sengoku period one  in the museum, I am thinking they must have come from the same batch and hence of the same sengoku period.  I am almost thinking these two guns should be displayed side by side
 

It is missing mekugi pin  as well,  I won’t be firing it,  attempt to restore it in any way.  I will simply treasure it the way it is 

 

thank you again for your help 

[Bugyotsuji]

The museum is probably optimistic with the Sengoku attribution, but it may well depend on their definition of Sengoku. I can imagine a batch of 100 pistols being ordered before the seige of Osaka, however. Anyway, glad you are happy. (I have one about the same age.) 

 

PS As with swords, mekugi pins were considered expendables; it is fairly easy to make one by whittling down a bamboo chopstick. Smoked bamboo is best, so darken the bamboo if you can't get 'susudake' (smoked bamboo). You don't want the barrel falling out when someone handles it.

[aaron sun]

Oh? I always thought the mekugi pin is brass.  I will look around to see if that is something I can do 

 

thanks as always 

[Bugyotsuji]

25 minutes ago, aaron sun said:

Oh? I always thought the mekugi pin is brass.  I will look around to see if that is something I can do 

 

thanks as always 

Yes, we do find 真鍮 'shinchu' brass, but unlike bamboo they tend to either get hammered in too tight, or conversely, drop out and get lost. I have used both over the past 20 years, but bamboo does the job better than brass, although you could argue that brass looks better. Give the bamboo a try. Some chopsticks aleady have a somewhat tapered end, so the job of whittling and shaping is not too hard. File and round off the ends and rub in some olive oil to darken them a little. You can even grill them lightly, but keep an eye out or they will burn to a crisp. 

[aaron sun]

What would be a ballpark market value range for the pistol?  Paid less

than $500 and felt I did well :D

 

or any suggestion on where we can get an appraisal?

 

 

 

[Brian]

I'd guess around $2000-2500