Iron Tsuba eagle & monkey -> Carved & antique or cast & modern ?

[Zantetsuken]

Hi everyone,

 

I got this tsuba from a reputable person. It was sold as a 18th piece. On facebook the authenticity is questioned, so I want to hear your opinions, too. 
 

thanks a lot,

Simon

[Brian]

Personally, I think it's modern

[Okan]

Modern cast

 

[Dereks]

Is this the same one that was sold on Proantic by Patrice Sabbah?

[Zantetsuken]

Yes, that’s the one

[Dereks]

Just now, Zantetsuken said:

Yes, that’s the one

 

I'm not an expert but doesn't look 18th century for sure. Return it if you can. 

[Matsunoki]

As said above…..modern cast item.  Whoever sold you this as 18thC clearly either hasn’t got a clue or is deliberately mis-describing things……in my opinion.

[Zantetsuken]

I found a copy of it:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/326424119551

 

The signature is legible here, Hagi Ju Tomonobu. 

[zanilu]

Both of them look like cast copies. 

On the ebay one mei is barely readable and around the nakago-ana there are the same imperfections and defects.

 

Sorry Simon.

[CSM101]

It should look like this.

[Geraint]

Dear Simon.

 

Sorry to add to your disappointment, it is always a shame when this happens.  Referencing your FB post and this one the 'ring' test is one that surfaces from time to time, coming I believe from an early 20th century article which suggest that a dull sound should lead you to,'suspect a cast or broken piece'.  I have found that cast iron rings well unless it is cracked.  Another point to note is that an 18th century piece that has survived this long without showing any signs of having been mounted on a sword needs careful examination, not to say that these things don't happen but it should focus you on the nakago ana whereupon the distinctive bottle shape should ring alarm bells.

 

I do hope that you will have something positive in the way of feedback from the seller.

 

All the best.

[cluckdaddy76]

In agreement with everyone so far, it looks to me that it is a replica of a Choshu school tsuba. 

 

Jason

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Simon,

Welcome to this great forum.

I don’t know much about anything, but I would say your tsuba is cast iron and made fairly recently.

There are many good threads on this forum which discuss how to tell a real authentic Edo period tsuba from a fairly newly made fake or reproduction tsuba.

I hope you didn’t pay too much for that tsuba.

Before you purchase another tsuba, maybe you can post a picture of it on this forum and ask some of the world’s leading experts on tsuba (my opinion) for their thoughts and opinions of the piece.

Onward!

[Zantetsuken]

Thanks a lot to all for your help and explanations. The sad thing is, that I read before about casted tsubas and looked for the typical signs. Now with all the explanations , it becomes clear. The seller is sure about its authenticity , but will take it back. I‘ll definetely return it, so at least not a very expensive lesson.

 

All the best,

Simon 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Zantetsuken said:

The seller is sure about its authenticity ,

Hmmmm. 
Don’t buy from him again!

Glad you can get your money back. 

[Zantetsuken]

He‘s definitely an honest guy and a knowledgeable person. He’s also known here ( Patrice Sabbah) and still sure it’s legit. He will show the Tsuba to Hataya san in Utrecht.

I‘m also convinced it’s cast. The copy on ebay doesn’t have a single deviation in the motif. Every mark and texture of the animals are exact the same. Practically impossible with hand carving.
Here my Tatsunao Tsuba (first one) and another one (possibly different artist) from a different collector, both forged with differences you expect with handmade forging / carving / sawing

[Dereks]

7 minutes ago, Zantetsuken said:

He‘s definitely an honest guy and a knowledgeable person. He’s also known here ( Patrice Sabbah) and still sure it’s legit. He will show the Tsuba to Hataya san in Utrecht.

I‘m also convinced it’s cast. The copy on ebay doesn’t have a single deviation in the motif. Every mark and texture of the animals are exact the same. Practically impossible with hand carving.
Here my Tatsunao Tsuba (first one) and another one from a different collector, both forged with differences you expect with handmade forging / carving / sawing

 

 

 

If he is a knowledgeable person, then he wasn't honest.

[Brian]

Ok, we're not going down this road again. There is enough info here for people to make up their own minds. Let's not drift off in another direction.

[Jake6500]

Developing the eye takes time and is a constant process Simon. You'll get the hang of it! Keep an eye on the forum as it is a great way to gain exposure to a wide variety of Tsuba and accompanying expertise from some more knowledgeable collectors.

 

This is just me, but I'm not one to be burned twice... If I had bought this Tsuba from a seller I would be very wary about buying from them again. 

 

I will stop short of Derek's rhetoric and suggest that maybe the seller's expertise lies with blades or some other type/aspect of Japanese militaria... I know there are some collectors who could tell you all about a blade and very little about Tosogu. I'm no expert on anything at all but for what little knowledge in Tosogu I have, I know nothing at all about armour, blades, etc.

[ROKUJURO]

On 3/14/2025 at 9:16 AM, Zantetsuken said:

.....Here my Tatsunao Tsuba (first one) and another one (possibly different artist) from a different collector, both forged with differences you expect with handmade forging / carving / sawing

Simon,

both very nice TSUBA with some corrosion and patina issues, but good to learn from.