Weird old altered Heianjo Tsuba into iron shinai tsuba?

Kantaro · March 7

"This seems a Heianjo tsuba that has been altered not for a naginata but a wooden 'bo-ken' - the symmetrical hitsu look added at a different time as well - nice inlay but very confused history. Something for a tsuba collector but not suitable for remounting on a sword I think. I have not seen very many Heianjo with that Kiku-gata shape, they are usually just round."

This is what Dale told me about it a few weeks ago before he dissapeared...

I do wonder if anyone has or has seen something similar?

Steves87 · March 7

Dale told me the same thing, it's always a very possible chance that this is why it was modified... there was another example floating around about 6 months ago that was still fixed to an old broken bokken tsuka... i feel like this was a good reason why Dale had said this.

I always wonder though, were bo-ken prized enough to heavily modify an iron Tsuba? Especially when metal modification required cost and tooling? With this in my mind, I could definitely see that a naginata was a more "worthwhile" arm to warrant the modification. The hitsu-ana may be a later mod, i think they still fall within the area of inlay (inlay didn't extend to original seppa-dai) but they do look too far away from the original nakago-ana.

And then, having said all of this.... how sure are we that it wasn't a Naginata Tsuba from day one... later modified to fit a sword?

It was a good price from memory, especially given the combined features, makes a good one-off collection piece.

Kantaro · March 8

"And then, having said all of this.... how sure are we that it wasn't a Naginata Tsuba from day one... later modified to fit a sword? "

hmmm

I understood that Nakago-ana for Naginata were not round?

So if it was a Naginata tsuba from day one...later modified to fit a bo-ken or it was a sword tsuba from day one...later modified to fit a bo-ken.

I also understood Naginata Tsuba are quite simple.

So I think Dale is right.

It is an Iron Heianjo sword Tsuba modified to fit a Bo-ken.

But why should you add hitsu??

Weird...it is indeed an interesting piece and the modification is very well done.

ROKUJURO · March 12

The above TSUBA was not modified for BOKKEN but perhaps for a SHINAI. BOKKEN cross-section is oval while this TSUBA was altered for a round item. In Japan, items of the SAMURAI era were often modified later when there was no more use for martial objects. There were even walking-sticks made of (sometimes broken) YUMI (bows), and I have seen a picture of a walking-stick with a TSUBA on it. Some time ago, I had shown a TSUBA that was used as key-hole cover.

I think this HEIAN-JO TSUBA would look very nice if carefully restored. It is probably an early one with intact (CLEMATIS?) HIRA ZOGAN.

Spartancrest · March 21

A lost and unanswered thread here /\

I think Jean is correct there are likely two variations in these large hole nakago-ana depending on the practice sport they were used in.

This example from the Kansas City Museum has the oval hole. The symetrical hitsu on this and the one shown by Paris would make great anchor points for a thread of tape/string to secure the tsuba to the shinai/boken - - as you may notice in the thread from Tim Evans, that tsuba is rather loosely held in place and as it is partly sukashi and has a [battered] hitsu it could easily be missing a string that would have held the tsuba more securely. All speculation on my part as I know next to nothing about shinai or boken [at least not what was used in the 19th century or earlier].

Kantaro · March 21

Very interesting Dale!

Any idea how old that iron one with the oval hole from the Kansas City museum is?

Is it also an altered existing tsuba or was it originaly made for bokken?

Spartancrest · March 21

9 minutes ago, Kantaro said:

Any idea how old that iron one with the oval hole from the Kansas City museum is?

https://spencerartapps.ku.edu/collection-search#/search/works/1928.2426 It is a Museum ! - another that doesn't go out of it's way to give any information, not even a rough size!

I have a feeling I saw another like it in the V&A they sometimes have a little information [not much] but as they have around 3,300 guards to search through it might take me an hour to find it.

Spartancrest · March 21

Tsuba top image V&A M.116-1924 https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O465295/tsuba/ NARA is the full extent of the information!

Kantaro · March 21

I suppose 1928 was the date it came to the museum in Kansas and 1924 for V&A?

The one from Tim Evans:

"There is attendant documentation implying that this bokuto dates to about 1888, or 20th year of Meiji. The tsuba looks much older"

(I put his pics hereunder)

Tim Evans · March 21

Here is another one held in place with a strip of leather. Maybe vintage but probably not antique. As far as tsuba initially made to fit bokuto, Steve Waszak had one made by a contemporary Japanese tsuba smith with the ana clearly designed for bokuto. All the antique tsuba I have seen with big holes appear to have been modified later rather than made that way.

Spartancrest · March 22

Paris [Kantaro] has shown me the opposite side of his Heianjo guard which from the tagane marks, top and bottom of the nakago-ana, would indicate it was the omote side. This side has much more damage and wear to it - suggesting to me that this side took the impacts from an opponents practice sword, meaning the guard was mounted the wrong way around when altered. Not that it matters very much but that is just an observation. [and may be wrong!] :dunno:

image.png.12d79bd354cee6a104fce52ae9eaab29.png

https://www.jauce.com/auction/u1161061203 - A repurposed Shoami - Little expensive for the condition. It looks like no particular type or school of guard was preferred and anything old and perhaps out of fashion could be re-cycled. [I note there is only one hitsu so it must have been attached some other way than what I have proposed]

image.png.bda43bef6d561890f6447febb6e7b4a4.png

Kantaro · March 22

Just a thought...

During the Meiji era (1868–1912) and early Taisho era (1912–1926), kendo was still evolving, and practitioners often used equipment that blended traditional and modern elements. Some kendo masters, particularly those who were deeply rooted in classical kenjutsu traditions, might have preferred the feel and symbolism of an iron tsuba, even if it was heavier and less practical than the lightweight tsuba used today.

Possible Context:

Transition from Kenjutsu to Kendo: Early kendo masters who were trained in classical swordsmanship might have modified iron tsuba for use on shinai to maintain a connection to the traditional samurai aesthetic and training methods.
Personal Preference: Some masters might have valued the durability and historical significance of an iron tsuba, even if it was unconventional for kendo.
Gekiken Competitions: Before kendo was fully standardized, gekiken competitions were more rugged and less regulated. An iron tsuba might have been used in these early sparring matches, though it would have been risky due to its weight and hardness.

Notable Figures:

While there’s no widely documented case of a specific kendo master using an iron tsuba, some early kendo pioneers who might have been associated with such practices include:

Takano Sasaburo (1862–1950): A key figure in the modernization of kendo, he was deeply knowledgeable about classical kenjutsu and might have experimented with traditional equipment.
Naito Takaharu (1862–1929): Another influential kendo master who helped standardize modern kendo but had roots in classical swordsmanship.

Kantaro · March 22

How old would you estimate the original Heianjo Tsuba?

Spartancrest · March 23

These altered guards are starting to add up! https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1178115794

Kantaro · March 23

Nice one Dale, I like it!

:Drool:

The price of this one hereunder wow, pffffft really?

Antique Japanese Tsuba motif of Chrysanthemums - Zentner Collection

Mantis dude · March 23

Was always curious about this modified nakago-ana. The inside has a screw like/ ridges shape.

Kantaro · March 24

Seems as that tsuba was used on a door as a key-hole cover or something similar?

Spartancrest · Thursday at 04:38 AM

Coin for the Ferryman?

ROKUJURO · Thursday at 10:10 AM

Nice! A Tsaristic Russian 3 kopeck coin in an altered TSUBA! That might be a quite rare combo!

ROKUJURO · Thursday at 10:23 AM

On 3/22/2025 at 9:33 AM, Kantaro said:

How old would you estimate the original Heianjo Tsuba?

Paris,

considering the general condition as can be guessed by a photo, it looks like early EDO JIDAI to me. The rather flat inlay might indicate that. But it could also be a late EDO piece that was not well cared for. HEIANJO TSUBA were also made as revival items.

Kantaro · Thursday at 10:48 AM

23 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Paris,

considering the general condition as can be guessed by a photo, it looks like early EDO JIDAI to me. The rather flat inlay might indicate that. But it could also be a late EDO piece that was not well cared for. HEIANJO TSUBA were also made as revival items.

Thanks Jean!

:thumbsup:

Infinite_Wisdumb · Thursday at 12:27 PM

2 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Paris,

considering the general condition as can be guessed by a photo, it looks like early EDO JIDAI to me. The rather flat inlay might indicate that. But it could also be a late EDO piece that was not well cared for. HEIANJO TSUBA were also made as revival items.

Deleted, was looking at Mantis Dude post