Noob with sword needs help

[2FixandRepair]

Hi all, I was given this sword by a friend for helping clean out his Grandfather's house and getting it ready for sale. (he lived to 101 we should all be so lucky) His family knew nothing of it's history only that he served in the U.S. Army Combat Engineers and they THINK he came back with it. The guy was a bit of a hoarder and loved Flea markets and pawn shops so it's entirely possible he bought it later on.  My knowledge of Japan and it's culture is limited to old Akira Kurosawa films and Anime. So I'm fairly ignorant of what this is beyond some google searches on my phone. I used to restore furniture for a living and love old cars and motorcycles so i decided to clean it up and hang it in my living room. After reading though the forum i realize i probably made mistakes (Like taking the rust off the tang) but since I have no plans of selling it I'm not concerned about $$$ value. There is no hamon so i don't believe this was hand forged, but the steel is quite good. There are no other markings on the blade, the other side is blank and there is no arsenal stamp. I've been trying to noodle out the marking on my own but have come up with little. I figured I'd see if there was someone more knowledgeable here who can help or point me in the right direction. 

[John C]

Robert:

I'm not one of the translators so I cannot read the smith, however the showa stamp above the signature indicates this is a ww2 made arsenal blade. The fittings are not army issue but could be gunzoku, civilians that worked with the military and were allowed to carry swords. The blade would be made using part machine and part forged and would have been oil quenched. Overall, a nice piece of genuine military history.

 

John C.

[nulldevice]

The tang is signed Seki ju Kunimichi saku "Made by Kunimichi of Seki province" 

 

As you stated, removing the rust from the tang was an unfortunate mistake as it is a very important part of the history and also value of the sword. But it is a WW2 era sword and from what I've read here, having the leather saya cover is an added bonus (some of the military guys can chime in there).

[2FixandRepair]

Thanks so Much! The leather on the sheath (the saya cover. I'm still learning the lingo) was really brittle and in need of reconditioning. Unfortunately my wife decided to unsnap it and tore some of it, but i used some smelly old school Hide based hot glue to secure it. Then did about a dozen passes with saddle conditioner and mink oil and it's fairly supple now. The lower Snap on the saya lost it's cover i was going to black lacquer it, but decided to leave it alone. I polished all the copper and brass (i don't know if that's correct to do but it looks nice). As i said before i stripped the rust off the tang in my ignorance, then used 600grit, 1000grit and the 2500grit wet paper with a 10:1 water to oil soap to polish out some rust marks on the blade, there is still a bit of pitting (especially near the point where the sword was left standing in the corner of the basement near a lot of moisture) but you have to look for it. However the edge is perfect and a few gentle passes with a stone and i could almost shave with it! I'd love to have some chisels from this kinda steel! I need a new buffing wheel to give this a nice mirror polish, but that will have to wait till tomorrow. I took a bit of 600 grit to the hilt (Tsuba?) just to knock the loose rust off but left it kinda "blued". The peg (mekugi?) that attached the handle was broken and loose. I turned a new one out of Ash since I had that lying around. There was still a lot of wobble between the handle and tang though, and I read somewhere that they would put prayer papers in there to tighten the fit. i don't know if this is true or not, but i used some old framing canvas to act a a shim and tapered the peg and it's tight as a drum now. All in all I'm pretty pleased with how this turned out. I might have damaged some of the historical value of this, but i don't really care. It's a cool sword that was forgotten behind a dresser in an old man's basement doomed to rot. Now it has a chance to live on!

[Brian]

All the work on the blade, fittings and tang are exactly the opposite of what should be done on a Japanese sword. Kinda hurts to read. Ruined a lot of the value it would have had. Too late now though. It's a wartime sword, and it does have a temper line. But with the work done to it, there is little chance it will be visible now, without very expensive professional restoration. These are also not sharpened like knives, you don't take a stone to the edge. Sharpening is accomplished through the blade polishing process which is quite complex and expensive. I suggest doing no more work on it, and just keeping it lightly oiled.

[2FixandRepair]

Brian, i get it. I know i didn't do this the right way. I wish i had done some more research. I'm sure I'll catch flack for it. But I'm not about to spend spend oodles on this to satisfy other peoples standards. I helped a friend with an onerous chore, he gave me a neglected sword, and rather than let it continue in that state, i did what i could with the skills and materials at hand. If there is one thing i learned in the Antique business is don't let a fear of perfection prevent you from preservation. Like I've said i don't care about the $$$$$. if there are any constructive tips or info you can give me I'd appreciate it.

 

[mecox]

Robert,  looks to be made by  “Kunimichi” (国道), real name Kobayashi Magoichi (小林孫市), of Seki,  born March 14th 1901, and died September 4th 1969.   He was a wartime smith but did produce some good work. He registered early on as a Seki swordsmith in Showa 14 (1939) October 26.   This one has a stamp of Sho in sakura indicating early war and not traditionally made.   In 1942 list of 400 smiths he was ranked as  Ryōkō no Retsu (7/7) and in the 1941  exhibition was ranked as  Fourth Seat.  Yours is in wartime civilian mounts.

Pic below from Slough book:

 

[2FixandRepair]

Thanks Mate!

 

[robinalexander]

1 hour ago, 2FixandRepair said:

All in all I'm pretty pleased with how this turned out. I might have damaged some of the historical value of this, but i don't really care. It's a cool sword that was forgotten behind a dresser in an old man's basement doomed to rot. Now it has a chance to live on!

Robert, I'm not sure if you are a joke or not, but I will assume for 1 minute that you are serious ........no .... sorry I can't even pretend that you are serious.

 

Rather than stuffing up this sword any more....just read this Forum.  If you don't agree with, or like, what you read then find some other place to publish your BS.

 

Brian (above) was a lot kinder than I am about your post and I like Newbies but seriously (?).

[robinalexander]

22 minutes ago, 2FixandRepair said:

But I'm not about to spend spend oodles on this to satisfy other peoples standards. I helped a friend with an onerous chore, he gave me a neglected sword, and rather than let it continue in that state, i did what i could with the skills and materials at hand. If there is one thing i learned in the Antique business is don't let a fear of perfection prevent you from preservation. Like I've said i don't care about the $$$$$. if there are any constructive tips or info you can give me I'd appreciate it.

I can't take you seriously.

[Brian]

Rob,
It's going to be easy to take offense and think you are being treated unfairly. But if you've been here long enough, you'll see that we are fairly strict about restoration, don't allow amateur work at all, and are all of the opinion that we don't entirely own these items, just preserving them for future generations.
That said, it is a wartime arsenal sword, so not as critical as antiques that we generally deal with, but hopefully you'll also understand that people are going to be harsh. Mainly to make sure that those amateurs reading who haven't yet taken their swords to a buff or sandpaper get the message, and maybe will reconsider. We are in the game of preserving and properly restoring. Sanding, buffing etc may make a sword look better to a knife collector, but to a Japanese sword collector it looks worse. Hides any hamon that was there, changes the edge geometry and generally takes it out of the league of collecting and into the hands of the general "sword swinger"
Again, not trying to offend, just being blunt for the next guy who reads this before doing work himself.
You have a genuine piece of WW2 history. What's done is done. It has an antique tsuba that may have been worth a few hundred. Resist the urge to do any more work, and it will still have some value for the future. Nakago patina is vital to the value of a Japanese sword. Cleaning it halves that value.
Anyways, hope you got some decent info on the smith and what the sword is.

[Bugyotsuji]

Cut the guy some slack. He says he’s new here. He’s open about it, he admits he didn’t know what he was doing, and he understands now what folks are telling him. He’s not the first, and he won’t be the last, and just I hope he can take the positive from our answers.

[nulldevice]

7 hours ago, 2FixandRepair said:

Brian, i get it. I know i didn't do this the right way. I wish i had done some more research. I'm sure I'll catch flack for it. But I'm not about to spend spend oodles on this to satisfy other peoples standards. I helped a friend with an onerous chore, he gave me a neglected sword, and rather than let it continue in that state, i did what i could with the skills and materials at hand. If there is one thing i learned in the Antique business is don't let a fear of perfection prevent you from preservation. Like I've said i don't care about the $$$$$. if there are any constructive tips or info you can give me I'd appreciate it.

 

I highlighted a section of your comment above and while that may be true in other fields, in Japanese swords the opposite is actually 100% true. A properly restored blade (done by a professional traditionally trained polisher) and the rusty, out of polish blade are both worth much more than the amateur restoration. There is no level of amateur restoration in Japanese swords that can add any value. Old blades are better off cleaned lightly with rubbing alcohol and covered with a thin layer of oil to prevent further corrosion until its time for a proper restoration. Any other attempts at restoration will only hurt the condition, collectability, and value of the sword no matter how careful the amateur is or how good their intentions are. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Robert,

 

For clarification, blades with the Showa stamp, like yours, were not "arsenal blades."  The stamp was an inspection stamp of the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association.  The Association began inspecting blades made by the industry at the request of sword makers and sellers.  The demand for Japanese blades exploded in the mid 1930s as Japan transitioned away from Western styled swords, back to Japanese, Samurai, styled swords.  There were low-quality blades hitting the market and hurting the industry's reputation.  So, they approached the Cutlery Association asking them to do Quality Control by inspecting all blades (more likely all non-traditionally made) made in the area.  The stamp showed up in 1935, but most blades with the stamp were made in 1940-41.

 

After logging yours into my files, it was surprising to see how many of them were in civilian fittings.  I'll run a count to see the percentages, but it seems higher than blades with other stamps.  My point being, that they were not "arsenal" blades.  The majority were sold to the Army and fitted out that way, but many of these blades were being initially bought by civilians or civil shops, later donated to the war effort and refitted, sometimes with just a leather cover, like yours.

 

On another note, I'm glad to hear you had success recovering the leather cover.  I have read many time of guys trying to preserve their leather covers, but had never heard of such success as you've had.

 

The blade does have a temper line, hamon in Japanese.  It is the straight pattern called suguha.  

 

Here is a care guide: Japanese Sword Care Guide - Japaneseswordindex.com

[George KN]

Dude, I've made my fair share of mistakes when trying to treat rust, but what on earth possessed you to clean the copper 😅... Do you just really not like patina? Fair play with the leather work though - as Bruce has said the same sorts of rules that apply to the metals don't to this, because it degrades so quickly. Similarly replacing the wooden mekugi peg if needed is also fine.

 

And as for the steel, people have mentioned that what you've done is bad, but haven't explained why too well beyond you halving the value. I now have at least three blades which have been mucked about with, and learnt the hard way about it all.

 

1. Japanese swords last hundreds of years. They get past from owner to owner, generation to generation. If someone in that chain doesn't look after it well, and rust builds up, it will need to be polished. Polishing is a destructive action - it always removes steel from the blade, never adds it. Yes, you have removed the rust, but in doing so have likely removed more material than a traditional polish would, shortening the swords lifespan. The nakago (tang) is never traditionally polished, or else the mei (signature) would quickly disappear. As others have mentioned, removing the rust from the nakago also removes one of the easiest ways to help date a blade.

 

2. The other problem with using sandpaper and stones without knowing enough about Japanese swords is you'll likely have changed the geometry of the blade, rounding edges and divisions that shouldn't be. For example most nihonto aren't shaped like a knife with a razor edge, and instead have a rounded niku/profile like the below (A.) example (https://japaneseswordindex.com/niku.htm):

This profile can be easily altered unknowingly with stones and belt sanders.

Similarly, the yokote (the vertical dividing line between the kissaki (tip of the blade)) and the rest of it should be a sharp transition, as should the shinogi (ridge line) - these again will likely have been rounded more than normal (https://www.Japanese...dex.com/glossary.htm).

 

They are possible for a professional to fix if there is enough meat on the blade, but doing so will mean even more of the steel will need to be removed than in a normal polish to do so, shortening the blades life further.

 

 

3. Using the wrong tools (sandpaper / non-traditional stones) can cause issues in the polish, even when it looks half decent. With the help of others on this forum, it turns out these white lines on my blade are likely from this:

 

Similarly, an uneven polish can cause other issues, like possibly exposing darker core steel (which is what I think maybe happening in other places on this sword):

 

 

So hopefully that explains a bit more? I'm hoping to explain not just to you @2FixandRepair but also all the people that may come and find this post on the forum through the in-built search or through Google in the future. I genuinely don't mean to come down hard on you, as I've done a whole bunch of mistakes on my journey, and information on the topic is genuinely quite hard to find outside this forum. 

 

You are now the guardian of that sword, and while the recent changes aren't ideal, I hope you'll look after it so it can continue its journey and keep writing its history. In the meantime, if you have the slightest interest in learning more, please stick around! There's so much to learn and if you've got the right mindset, it's really rewarding!