Naginata tsuba

[O koumori]

Hi all,

I believe that it is generally accepted that the primary function of the tsuba was to prevent the swordsman's hand from slipping forward onto the blade during combat. 

What, then, was the purpose of a tsuba on a naginata? To catch an opponent's blade to prevent it from damaging the pole?

[ROKUJURO]

3 minutes ago, O koumori said:

....it is generally accepted that the primary function of the tsuba was to prevent the swordsman's hand from slipping forward onto the blade during combat......

Dan,

a good question which shows what the "general acceptance" is worth! What about AIKUCHI which are used in a thrusting motion? How many thrusting techniques are there with KATANA?

Of course a NAGINATA TSUBA has the same protective function for the pole and the warrior as on any other Japanese blade. 

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Jean C  "How many thrusting techniques are there with KATANA?"

 

Jean, that would really depend upon the era in which the sword was being used, whether in armour or not.

 

The Ryuha also would be an important consideration and the distinct difference  between those founded during the incessant fighting in the pre Tokugawa era and those founded in the relatively peaceful 265 year hegemony of the Tokugawa Bakufu.

 

In the late 1960's, the late Donn F Draeger made a deep study of those Ryuha, that were founded in both pre and post 1603 Japan.

 

Sadly, more than a few of them have passed into memory in as little as a generation and a  half.

 

The Ryuha to which I belong has a large variety of thrusting techniques with the Katana/Tachi, theses are aimed at major arteries and the weak areas of armour construction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kantaro]

Good question indeed. How did these Naginata tsuba look like?

[ROKUJURO]

Paris,

about like this one below, but otherwise not much different from other "normal" TSUBA. I found that they are often very simple with little or no decoration. The NAKAGO-ANA can be quite large with some.

[Jacques]

there are also tsuba for yari 

 

[Jacques]

 

[DKR]

 

Dear Jaqcues,

now I'm very disappointed in you.

It is very clear to see that this tsuba was originally a normal tsuba. So for a katana or waki.

So this is not a tsuba for a yari!

At best an example of a converted tsuba.........and nothing else..........

and then even worse......you, especially you, call you tube a serious 

Source for  information ?

[Kantaro]

10 hours ago, Jacques said:

there are also tsuba for yari 

 

 

Nice one Jacques.

It reminds me of this strange one I have seen.

What do you think of it?

[Yumso]

That shape seems like it was originally used as a katana(or wakizashi... or tanto...) but somehow later been used as a shinai tsuba?
Though I've never seen an iron shinai tsuba...

[ROKUJURO]

Sometimes we see these modified TSUBA for BOKKEN/SHINAI, walking-sticks, YARI or (more likely) Western rapiers. Nothing wrong with that, it is the obviously last use they had.

Or even keyhole covers!

[Jacques]

2 hours ago, DKR said:

 

Dear Jaqcues,

now I'm very disappointed in you.

It is very clear to see that this tsuba was originally a normal tsuba. So for a katana or waki.

So this is not a tsuba for a yari!

At best an example of a converted tsuba.........and nothing else..........

and then even worse......you, especially you, call you tube a serious 

Source for  information ?

I know, but this tsuba has been modified to be mounted on a yari, so it's now a yari tsuba...

[DKR]

I'm sorry, but there is no Yari Tsuba.
That's nonsense.
What could be, however, is that it is a modified Tsuba which has been mounted on one of these oddities Koshirae.

Example in the picture including your " Tsuba for a Yari"

These fantasy mounts are mostly relatively new .....perhaps tourist souvenirs

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I do have quite a few naginata tsuba from Muromachi period and some even possibly Nanbokuchō period in my books. As said before they are mostly very plain in design.

 

However I do not think the purpose of tsuba in general is to stop the hand from sliding to the blade. I am not sure where this narrative comes from originally.

[ROKUJURO]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

.......However I do not think the purpose of tsuba in general is to stop the hand from sliding onto the blade. I am not sure where this narrative comes from originally.

These stories keep themselves alive and whoever read it somewhere continues spreading it. 
It is the same thing as in other fields, e.g. TEKKOTSU.  

[John C]

I have also seen these square ana on kabutowari.

 

John C.

[Jacques]

Quote

However I do not think the purpose of tsuba in general is to stop the hand from sliding onto the blade. I am not sure where this narrative comes from originally.

This is one element, but the tsuba is also used to protect against the opponent's blade, which is why it's made of soft metal so it doesn't break. In Katori Shinto ryu, there are several techniques using tsuba.

[OceanoNox]

8 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

These stories keep themselves alive and whoever read it somewhere continues spreading it. 

Unfortunately, I have even seen the MET catalogue on samurai, written by the Tokyo National Museum curators, specifically say it, adding that it was not for protection from blows. Sasano as well talked about the tsuba being to prevent slipping, because thrusts are the best attacks against someone in armour. Nevermind that we have tsuba on tachi, whose curvature makes the idea of a thrust dubious.

 

Just like @Jacques wrote, koryu teach to use the tsuba to protect your hand or catch an enemy's weapon. Shinkage ryu does too. It is clear from koryu documents that tsuba were thought as a protection from blows for the hand.

[O koumori]

22 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

These stories keep themselves alive and whoever read it somewhere continues spreading it. 

Yes Jean, I read it "somewhere." 

 

“The guard protects the palm of the hand when holding the sword.”

 The Samurai Sword – a Handbook, John M. Yumoto

 

 

"It prevents the hand from slipping onto the blade and brings the sword’s center of balance closer to the handle,"  Princeton University Art Museum

https://artmuseum.pr...ctions/objects/19430

 

"It protected its user’s hand when he grabbed his sword or prevented its user’s hand slipping towards the blade part when he hits his enemy."     Samurai Museum Shop, Shinjuku  

https://www.samuraim...81K19QIu6Ibei3h4WeIA

 

And there are more.

Anyway, I had no idea that this was a controversial topic, so I'll stop "spreading it" and get back to my original question: What function does the tsuba serve on a naginata?

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you Dan!

In my opinion, a NAGINATA TSUBA has the same protective function for the pole and the warrior as on any other Japanese blade. 

Mounted on a NAGINATA, it becomes clear that TSUBA are not mainly installed as hand-stops. 

[DKR]

@ROKUJURO...........and why should an attacker attack the shaft of the Naginata instead of the wearer or the hands themselves?

Have you ever seen a practice fight in Naginata Jutsu (better Naginata Do) ?

The targets of attack are the legs, hands, arms, head etc., the body of the opponent. But not the shaft of the Naginata.

What makes you think that the Tsuba you show above is a Naginata-Tsuba?

 

How many Naginata with Tsuba have you seen?
Can you show us pictures of Naginata with Tsuba, i.e. real objects, not paintings or scrolls, please.
Most of the ones I've seen didn't have a Tsuba.
But they did have a strong thick Seppa... nothing more.

[Jacques]

 

[ROKUJURO]

Didier,

to be exact, the TSUBA I have shown was called a NAGAMAKI TSUBA by the collector. I have indeed seen most NAGINATA without TSUBA, but a few with one. I did not say all NAGINATA have one.

I have seen NAGINATA-JUTSU on one occasion in Japan, but mainly in videos. When two opponents fight - one with NAGINATA, one with KATANA -  the front part of the NAGINATA shaft is often aimed for by the KATANA fighter. There is a lot of contact all the time, so a TSUBA on the shaft may make sense sometimes.

[OceanoNox]

People don't aim typically for the sword either, but if you block and control your opponent's weapon, a guard of some sort helps with that purpose.

With how it's wielded, a tsuba also makes a lot of sense on a nagamaki than a naginata.

 

@O koumori here are some info I got from earlier sources about tsuba:

"鍔は只拳の楯と聞物を太くも太くもなきは非がごと" in a Hayashizaki shin muso ryu scroll dated from 1601  (if memory serves). This one calls a tsuba a "shield for the fist(s).

 

Tsukahara Bokuden wrote:

鍔はたたふときにしくはなきものを細きを好む人そ拙き
皆人のしらてや恥をかきぬらん鍔のつめある習ありとは
鍔はたた切ぬき有を好むへし厚き無紋を深く嫌へり
あら鍔はいかに厚くと切れぬへしたとへ薄きも古き好めり

It does not directly refer to tsuba as hand protection, but states what should be preferred in terms of design.

 

In 1719, someone called Isawa (井澤蟠龍子, in 武士道叢書) wrote:

"鍔は無地の厚きを用へし

大サ三寸四五分短刀（わきざし）の鍔三寸ほどにすべし

見るところのよろしからんを思ひてすかしあるうすき鍔を用べからず打合とき切破ことあり"

which states a preferred design for a tsuba to resist blows (along with the sword itself).

 

I couldn't get the direct citation, but it's cited by both Nagaoka (1942) and Sasano (1975): in the essay 鈴林類纂 (Edo period), tsuba are recommended to be essentially like kachushi tsuba (thicker mimi than seppadai, have some, but not too big, sukashi). The shape would prevent damage to the mekugi when hit, and the small sukashi would prevent blades from going in them or catching them.

 

Now, the issue is why all those are not in accordance with one another about design. At any rate, the first is clear, the others are less direct but imply that tsuba are hand protection. The funny thing to me, is that all the works that say tsuba are for slip prevention (like in the Art of the Samurai: Japanese Arms and Armors 1156-1868 catalogue of the MET), I have not seen any period source being cited.

 

 

 

 

[DKR]

I have made a mistake. It is completely clear and correct that a katana against a naginata naturally has the shaft as the target of attack.

Everything else doesn't work either because of the lack of range. I don't know why but had only naginata versus naginata in mind.

Excuse me , my bad.

[Bugyotsuji]

While on the topic there’s a lovely nagamaki with tsuba in the Leeds Royal Armouries. (The place is well worth a visit, for a thousand reasons!)

There is also a naginata with what looks like a very compact ‘tantō’ style tsuba in place.

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

PS the naginata…

 

[Tohagi]

Hello,

I was told that the tsuba not only protect hand against a sliding along the blade stricke like in western fancing, but also is part of a shock absorbing system wich inclued habaki,seppa dai, fuchi and the tsuka. This to avoïd the blade to break at the critical point of junction betwen nakago and nagasa.

 

Maybe the same function is found in naginata. By the way, they were mainly used to break cavalry charges... a stoper is usefull in this case and something to fix the pool in the ground at the other hand of the pool.

[OceanoNox]

5 hours ago, Tohagi said:

also is part of a shock absorbing system wich inclued habaki,seppa dai, fuchi and the tsuka.

Do you remember where you read/heard that? It's very interesting to me. In my comment above, Isawa talks about failure (and I think there is another who talks either about mekugi failure or failure at the habaki). My student did a calculation, and the kachushi tsuba with a thick mimi "keeps" the shockwave bouncing around in the tsuba, for instance. I wonder who much it is mitigated with everything else.

 

PS: It might be Yaso who published a paper about impacting a Japanese sword. They identified the nodes: at the monouchi and at the mekugi, i.e. where the vibrations are smallest. When doing it on a naked blade, there was some vibration at the nodes, but with a full koshirae, the vibration was basically 0 at these nodes.

[O koumori]

14 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

here are some info I got from earlier sources about tsuba:

Thank you!