goo Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 (edited) I find myself struggling to find a way to translate mei on tsuba, swords etc. and I don't want to beg for someone else to tell me every time I need to know, who's mei is this? One thing I have noticed is engraved mei can be like Western style handwriting, it has a certain style and if you are familiar enough with the language, context, etc. you can read handwriting. It has become clear to me that a non Japanese Westerner needs a varied and extensive resource library if they want to succeed. Could some of you please share your tips on translation programs? Revealing what the kanji looks like so you can analyze and identify the structure of the engraved character? How do you all do this? Edited February 25 by goo Add content Quote
Ray Singer Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 As you see more and more mei, your eyes will become better trained to 'see through' all the kanji variations and recognize a character when it is on front of you. The best thing you can do is practice translating as many inscriptions as you can, it is a steep entry point in the beginning but I promise that this process gets much faster and easier over time. And my apologies if this sounds self-serving, but I do have a series of flashcards that I developed to help with that initial entry point. If this sounds like something that might be of interest, please see below. https://swordsofjapa...supplies/flashcards/ Best regards, Ray 6 Quote
Shugyosha Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 Hi Gustavo, Like Ray says, you I think that you have to dip your toe in the water and practise - the more you do, the easier it gets. It also helps if you can get an idea of the nuts and bolts: learn how to identify the stroke counts for kanji or radicals and learn to spot radicals themselves as, armed with this knowledge, you can identify the various kanji and look them up. For me anyway, it's more about that - I'm probably never going to know more than a few of the more commonly used kanji off by heart but hopefully, even if I can't identify the entire kanji, I can turn to a dictionary or other reference. In my case it's often more of a problem-solving exercise than a linguistic one in that nibbling away at the pieces can often help solve the entire puzzle. These are useful references (apologies if you're aware of them): https://jisho.org/ https://markussesko....ntocompendium-e1.pdf http://www.jssus.org/nkp/ 2 Quote
Mark S. Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 It also helps to learn how to ‘count’ the stokes of kanji. It is then easier to look them up (at least names) in references such as Markus Sesko’s Nihonto Compendium (downloadable free on this site - mentioned above). With practice you can usually narrow the kanji down to within a couple strokes and then just match to the printed version. Works well when the mei is written in the more ‘formal’ style. When written in ‘semi-formal’ or ‘informal’ styles (think cursive vs. block print) it can be a bit more difficult. It does take A LOT of practice. As previously stated, over time you will begin to recognize certain kanji or patterns of kanji. Practice, practice, practice. Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 It can be rather time consuming for large inscriptions, but drawing them out can be very useful: https://kanji.sljfaq.org/ https://kanji.sljfaq.org/mr.html 2 1 2 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 For simpletons like me, and BTW thanks for all the links above, guys!!!, I go to Japaneseswordindex.com Seki Smith List and scan down the page looking for kanji that match the mei. There is also the list of kanji used in names Brian posted on the Home page of NMB: 1 Quote
John C Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 10 hours ago, goo said: How do you all do this? Gustavo: One of the techniques that has worked somewhat for me is to memorize just the most commonly used names at first. Ray's flashcard set has helped with this. Names like Mitsu, Masa, Kane, Kune, etc. Then memorize other words common in mei, like Seki, shu, ju, saku, kore, fujiwara, minamoto, etc. You will quickly recognize these and eliminate some of them from the name of the smith. Lastly, I keep a file of translated mei. As folks ask for help, I take a screen shot of the mei and the translation and file it away. I have several hundred by now to use as a reference. John C. 3 Quote
Shugyosha Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 Trying to apply a bit of logic to this, as substantial amounts of sword making took place in Bizen and Mino provinces and the likelihood of encountering a signature by a smith from one of those two provinces is fairly high, starting with place names and smiths from those provinces should get a reader ahead of the game. 3 Quote
uwe Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 It’s probably also helpful to keep in mind how most of the longer inscriptions (except cutting tests) are comprised. The vast majority starts on top with a place name (province) in some cases followed by a title and again followed by the name of the smith. Completed with the usual kanji for “made” (one or two)… Simplified explanation 😉 This might be a little bit different from what you encounter on tosogu, armor or teppo… 3 Quote
nulldevice Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 23 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said: It can be rather time consuming for large inscriptions, but drawing them out can be very useful: https://kanji.sljfaq.org/ https://kanji.sljfaq.org/mr.html This is a great tool that I also use for kanji I don't recognize right away or for kanji that aren't common on mei. 1 Quote
Tim Evans Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 The Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary by Andrew N. Nelson has a guide in the front to help locate kanji by stroke count and radical, which then refers you to the page where there are kanji with those characteristics translated to English. It is my go-to reference for deciphering kanji. 2 1 Quote
goo Posted February 26 Author Report Posted February 26 Thank you all for the help and information on how to tackle these mei. These are some Great resources. 1 Quote
Shugyosha Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 Something that just occurred: Aoi Art has their listings in Japanese and English so you can try a translation and mark your own homework afterwards. 1 Quote
nulldevice Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 Alternative torture method: Buy an 8 volume set of nihonto books that don't have an English translation and index them manually. I learned a lot of kanji for names that way, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to someone who doesn't want 80lbs of sword books they can't read taking up their bookshelf space. 1 4 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 Aim ahead, always, but remember you will never achieve perfection, you’ll just get better and better at it. We all make mistakes, and we learn by them. And some Mei are unreadable, or turn out to be gimei anyway. And then more and more become dead easy. It’s a fun puzzle, and an enjoyable challenge. 1 1 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 22 hours ago, uwe said: It’s probably also helpful to keep in mind how most of the longer inscriptions (except cutting tests) are comprised. The vast majority starts on top with a place name (province) in some cases followed by a title and again followed by the name of the smith. Completed with the usual kanji for “made” (one or two)… Simplified explanation 😉 This might be a little bit different from what you encounter on tosogu, armor or teppo… Good point. Actually the Mei on teppo and armour are very similar in construction, and there is some degree of overlap with popular name Kanji. 1 Quote
Grey Doffin Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 Indexing a Japanese book is an excellent way to learn the characters and it doesn't have to be a book that doesn't already have a romaji index. Fujishiro's Nihon Toko Jiten would be a good choice; everybody wants to own a copy anyway. Set the index aside and see what you can do on your own. You can then look to the index and see how you've done. This way you're learning from written (carved) signatures, not printed Kanji and all the characters are relevant to your study. I learned a lot in putting together the JSL Index at jssus.org. Grey 3 Quote
Kanenaga Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 If like me you find stroke counting tedious, you can try Japanese Art Signatures, by Self and Hirose. Pure pattern-recognition, with special chapters on dates, places, titles, etc. Quote
John C Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 3 hours ago, Kanenaga said: Pure pattern-recognition, Thanks, Les. Just ordered my copy! John C. Quote
Jacques Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 I often use this one https://www.jishop.com/ 1 Quote
Kiipu Posted March 1 Report Posted March 1 I did a brief intro for guntō signatures. I covered the parts that come before and after a name. Reading Guntō Signatures For gendiatō signatures, I use Sesko's Gendaito Project to look them up. Gendaito Project 1 Quote
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