Natichu Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 Good evening all, Just perusing Aoi (as I'm sure most of us do), and saw that their latest piece has what they have described as Tensho koshirae: https://www.aoijapan.com/katana：fujiwara-masahiro-藤原正弘judged-as-osumi-jo-大隅掾nbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/ Image attached as well. To my mind, this doesn't seem to resemble Tensho koshirae at all. That said, I'm a beginner at best, so wanted to get a sense of whether this was an error on Aoi's part or a complete misunderstanding on my part as to what Tensho koshirae is. As I'm a big fan of what I would say is the more textbook stay (see: Markus Sesko's Koshirae Taiken at pages 213-219), this one caught me rather off-guard. Any thoughts or points of education would be very much welcome! 1 Quote
Natichu Posted February 25 Author Report Posted February 25 4 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said: How very gauche for Tensho....! I would have thought it was more of the oft-referenced ostentatious Momoyama style koshirae, but glad to know that I'm not the only one that thought it was somewhat loud! Quote
ROKUJURO Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 The KOSHIRAE is in very good condition, looking like 19th century, but perhaps it was indeed made in MOMOYAMA era. That would explain the high papers and the term TENSHO to me. 1 Quote
GRC Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 At a quick glance, that tsuba has a distinct "later Higo style" influence... The Hosokawa clan (specifically Hosokawa Tadaoki, the main driving force behind the entire Higo aesthetic) didn't even get to Higo province until 1632. And, more importantly the tsuba is signed by YANAGAWA NAOMASA (1692-1757) So between those little factual nuggets and the relative untouched newness of the whole Koshirae... it would appear to date sometime from the early to mid 1700s, and that's even going with the generous assumption that it's all original and dates to the same time that the tsuba was made (which is highly unlikely anyway). I don't see how it could possibly get papered to the Tensho era... almost 200 years earlier in the late 1500's. Oh wait, how could I forget... the papers are meaningless and those organizations will paper anything to anyone or any era, on any given day. You just have to know the right people or grease the right palms, and voila. This is just another example of the complete sham that the papering system is built upon. 1 1 1 Quote
MauroP Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 37 minutes ago, GRC said: Oh wait, how could I forget... the papers are meaningless and those organizations will paper anything to anyone or any era, on any given day. You just have to know the right people or grease the right palms, and voila. I have to disagree. The paper cover just the blade. And Tensho koshirae refers to some stylistic characters, not to the age that koshirae was actually assemblee. 5 Quote
Curran Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 Is that an ivory piece around the koiguchi? If so, export/import means the ivory comes off, no? 1 Quote
Natichu Posted February 25 Author Report Posted February 25 1 hour ago, MauroP said: I have to disagree. The paper cover just the blade. And Tensho koshirae refers to some stylistic characters, not to the age that koshirae was actually assemblee. That was certainly my take, both the reference to Tensho and mine to Momoyama - stylistic rather than an age statement. Quote
ROKUJURO Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 Nathaniel, but stylistically, it does not look like TENSHO, and it probably does not have the age, so there must be another point. 2 Quote
Natichu Posted February 25 Author Report Posted February 25 15 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said: Nathaniel, but stylistically, it does not look like TENSHO, and it probably does not have the age, so there must be another point. Certainly. Glad to know I wasn't totally out to punch thinking that didn't appear to be what I'd describe as a Tensho-style koshirae. Quote
Jacques Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said: The KOSHIRAE is in very good condition, looking like 19th century, but perhaps it was indeed made in MOMOYAMA era. That would explain the high papers and the term TENSHO to me. Only the blade is papered, As for the rest, I'm out. 2 Quote
sabiji Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 I am extremely inexperienced, especially when it comes to Koshirae, but very curious. I also suspect that Tsuruta-San meant Higo style rather than Tensho style. On the other hand, Tensho and Higo-Koshirae are quite related in terms of evolution. The mount has some features that are more common in early koshirae - which doesn't automatically make it an early koshirae. The koiguchi is somewhat raised, and I also think that the kurigate is positioned quite close to the koiguchi. However, the tsuka has only a minimal hourglass shape and the fuchi is wide and has no tapering at all. This makes the saya-koiguchi-tsuba-fuchi transition look rather incongruous. Something is not right. At least as far as I can tell from the photos. And the high price is more likely to relate to the blade. Osumi jo Masahiro is a well-known Horikawa swordsmith. 2 Quote
jsv Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 Red saya and leather wrapped handle is a sub group of tensho koshirae but the fittings are not. Tony 1 Quote
Natichu Posted February 27 Author Report Posted February 27 9 hours ago, jsv said: Red saya and leather wrapped handle is a sub group of tensho koshirae but the fittings are not. Tony Very interesting! Not something I've heard before, so very much appreciate it. I assume something along these lines would fit the bill? https://www.flickr.c...s/72177720321619029/ Quote
Natichu Posted February 27 Author Report Posted February 27 12 hours ago, Toryu2020 said: Why doesnt somebody ask Tsuruta san? Not something that had occurred to me! I had assumed there was a real chance that I was simply wrong in my understanding, so felt more comfortable exposing my ignorance here rather than writing directly to Tsuruta-san (with whom I don't have any existing relationship) to ask for clarification. Quote
Toryu2020 Posted February 27 Report Posted February 27 Email sent so we will see what they say. They are usually quite happy to answer any questions. -t 1 Quote
Natichu Posted February 27 Author Report Posted February 27 3 hours ago, Toryu2020 said: Email sent so we will see what they say. They are usually quite happy to answer any questions. -t Many thanks Thomas, that is very much appreciated! Quote
Toryu2020 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 " Thank you for your email. What makes a Koshirae Tensho in style is its handle. The handle is winding in the middle to ensure a secure grip during the war fight. It is more opactical than the straight handle. Kind regards, Aoi Art" I think they are saying it is the waisted shape of the Tsuka but I don't see it. I might be inlined to call this a Kobusho koshirae rather than Tensho... -t t is for Tom Quote
Natichu Posted February 28 Author Report Posted February 28 11 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said: " Tahnk you for your email. What makes a Koshirae Tensho in style is its handle. The handle is winding in the middle to ensure a secure grip during the war fight. It is more opactical than the straight handle. Kind regards, Aoi Art" I think they are saying it is the waisted shape of the Tsuka but I don't see it. I might be inlined to call this a Kobusho koshirae rather than Tensho... -t t is for Tom Thank you very much for posting their response! Certainly the ryugo waisted style is an element of Tensho koshirae, but I would not have thought was enough on its own to fit the bill - Markus Sesko, for example, gives a few more what I would have thought defining characteristics. Tsuruta-san undoubtedly knows more than I do though, so appreciate the insight. Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted March 1 Report Posted March 1 Intending to go and see this very soon. Various (papered) Koshiraé on display. Friends have recommended this, if anyone is passing through. (Will post in the events section too.) https://www.city.set...site/token/1315.html 1 Quote
DKR Posted March 1 Report Posted March 1 If someone want to see Tensho Koshirae , take a look in the Katalog from the great exhibition "Uchigatana koshirae" from the Tokyo National Museum. In this Koshirae from Aoi Art i can't see features that are typical for so called " Tensho Koshirae " The piece looks to me as if it was put together from different parts that never really belonged together. The style as well as the overall appearance does not match Koshirae which had become fashionable in the late Muromachi / Momoyama period. But that's just my opinion 1 Quote
Lewis B Posted March 1 Report Posted March 1 Here is my Tensho koshirae being made in the workshop of the Okayama Museum. https://www.facebook...pcb.5810403085743944 3 2 Quote
DKR Posted March 1 Report Posted March 1 Nice , very nice ! That shows very good features of Koshirae in the " Tensho Style" . Quote
Barrie B Posted March 1 Report Posted March 1 Is he not confused with Toppei Koshira because of the shape of the Saya - The Kojiri looks to be shaped to slide into a frog? Barrie 1 Quote
Curran Posted March 5 Report Posted March 5 On 3/1/2025 at 6:57 PM, Barrie B said: Is he not confused with Toppei Koshira because of the shape of the Saya - The Kojiri looks to be shaped to slide into a frog? Barrie Yes. I wondered that too. It looked more Late Edo Toppei Koshirae . Not Tensho. But Aoi makes a lot of mistakes in their high volume turnover. 1 Quote
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