Gendaito Mitsuoki/Shibata ka

[Jon MB]

Hello,

 

I have a sword signed 'Mitsuoki', dated October of 1943. Was Mitsuoki an alternate signature used by Shibata Ka?

 

Thanks

 

Jon

[Stephen]

http://search.freefind.com/servlet/free ... y=mitsuoki

 

I dont have time to search all these, heres a link fwiw, hope it helps.

[Stephen]

http://search.freefind.com/servlet/free ... Shibata+Ka

 

and a search for Shibata Ka

[george trotter]

Jon,

No...Shibata Ka of Akita and Endo Mitsuoki of Niigata are different men...both excellent gendaito smiths.

If you have a sword by Mitsuoki I envy you (I once had one but foolishly let it go....that's my oshigata on Ric Stein's site).

I don't know Ka's work, but i did once have a sword by his patron/teacher Sato Shigenori...also excellent (again, my oshigata on Ric Stein's site)...also now gone...sigh!

Regards,

George

[Jon MB]

Gentlemen, many thanks.

Any further comments welcome. I'll post some pics soon.

 

Jon

[Ray Singer]

I recall that the last Ka sold on Aoi Art had the Mitsuoki mei. Nakago and date were otherwise typical of Shibata Ka...

 

- Ray

[Rich S]

George -

 

Your Shigenori oshigata along with the rest of the site is still there. As mentioned in another post Earthlink only allows 1G of bandwidth per month, so the site is "temporarily unavailable" when it exceeds that, usually about the 25th of the month (sometimes sooner). The site is there. See the thread:

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6755

 

Rich S

[Stephen]

http://home.earthlink.net/~ttstein/shignor2.jpg

[george trotter]

Hi Ray,

You intrigue me...what do you mean the Shibata Ka sold by Aoi Art had the Mitsuoki mei. They are different men...did they work on the same blade? ...or did Aoi say they are the same man? One man has the surname Shibata b. Meiji 39 and the other is Endo b. Meiji 39.

George.

[george trotter]

Oops...meant to type that Endo Mitsuoki was b. Meiji 37.

George

[Jean]

http://www.nihonto.ca/shibata-ka/index.html

[george trotter]

Thanks Jean...very interesting article...I can see no connection here or in my Japanese sources which link Ka and Mitsuoki in any way...unless perhaps they worked together or studied together at some time...maybe the above posts refer to a joint forging effort some time resulting in a mix of meis? Can Ray and Jon give us some more details? Good makers, both of these...worth knowing more...

Regards,

George.

[george trotter]

Jon and Ray...

there is a Mitsuoki from Akita as you suggested. I don't know if this Mitsuoki and Shibata Ka are the same man as I can't find out anything about him except he is listed in Hawley as a Showa smith in Akita MIT 204.

An oshigata matching this is to be found on Rich Stein's valuable oshigata database...have a look at this mei and maybe let me know if this is the Mitsuoki mei you saw on the "Ka" sword (and on the Aoi Arts sword Ray)...if so it may be an alternative name used by Ka ...this I did not know...

 

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~ttstein/mitsuoki.jpg

 

Regards,

George.

[Jon MB]

yes, same Mitsuoki signature. I'll post some pics tomorrow.

 

Many Thanks

 

Jon

[Ray Singer]

let me know if this is the Mitsuoki mei you saw on the "Ka" sword (and on the Aoi Arts sword Ray

 

Hi George, if memory serves that is the same mei. It was an ichimonji utushimono and described by Tsuruta-san as being Shibata Ka's work...

 

- Ray

[Jon MB]

Hello, here is a pic of the sword

[Jon MB]

Another, close-up of mei

[Jon MB]

The previous mei reads 'Mitsuoki', this is 'Shibata Ka'

[Jon MB]

Another pic

[george trotter]

Ray and Jon,

Nice swords...these pics certainly show similarities in the yasurimei and some strokes of the meis themselves...I did not know about this Ka/Mitsuoki connection...I was thinking about Endo Mitsuoki...different man altogether. I must do some further research...in the meantime, I wonder if any of the "old hands" can give us any information on this use of the Mituoki signature?...early signature?...special reason/place signature? Since KA trained with Miyaguchi Toshihiro who later became Miyaguchi Yasuhiro of the Yasukuni Jinja sword forging smiths I wonder if he used an "alternative mei for a special place or steel forging...like Ikkansai Morikuni/Miyaguchi Yasuhiro did...I'm sure we'd all be interested to know. If I find anything I'll let you know.

regards,

George.

[Jon MB]

George and Ray,

 

Thanks for your imput, appreciated..

 

Here is another pic

[Jon MB]

Oshigata

[george trotter]

Jon, Nice sword...you are very fortunate.

I looked through my Japanese language Nihonto books and Shibata Ka is certainly held in very high esteem by the Japanese scholars. Strangely though, although his use of the Mitsuoki mei seems known there among people in Nihonto circles (such as Aoi Arts) I could find no mention of his use of it in any ofmy Japanese sources...we'll have to wait for one of the knowledgeable here to comment...or...you could email Aoi Arts with your oshigata and ask them...they might help.

Regards, George.