As Requested: Additional Nihontō photos for attribution. Would greatly appreciate your assistance!

[DocTheRoc]

No long commentary this time, would absolutely appreciate any thoughts you have on dating/attribution  

 

(I’ve done my own research, but frankly I better just defer to the experts)

 

—————

 

Purchased a Nihontō on consignment, from Japan. I especially enjoy what appears to be the original koshirae, but I would love your opinion here too. 
 

Word of warning, the blade appears to have been polished multiple times, and the kissaki is chipped. 
 

Side note: I had such a hard time compressing the photos - the image quality (and thus size) was far too large…hopefully the quality turned out ok. 
 

[ROKUJURO]

I am not too optimistic that the blade is of Japanese origin. It misses a clear SHINOGI on the NAKAGO; the KIRI JIRI also looks wrong to me.
Detailed photos of the HAMACHI /MUNEMACHI area may prove me wrong. Please use a dark background to increase the contrast!

In this case, the low quality KOSHIRAE might indeed belong to the blade as it does not look antique to me. Generally, you do not find EDO era blades very often with their original mountings. 

[DocTheRoc]

9 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

I am not too optimistic that the blade is of Japanese origin. It misses a clear SHINOGI on the NAKAGO; the KIRI JIRI also looks wrong to me.
Detailed photos of the HAMACHI /MUNEMACHI area may prove me wrong. Please use a dark background to increase the contrast!

In this case, the low quality KOSHIRAE might indeed belong to the blade as it does not look antique to me. Generally, you do not find EDO era blades very often with their original mountings. 

I would be quite surprised, are non-Japanese blades typically permitted to be in/sold-from Japan? Or do you think the export authorities missed this? 

 

Either way, here are some additional

photos of what you requested - hopefully this background is dark enough: 

 

[DocTheRoc]

Here’s an additional picture that hopefully shows the Shinogi-ji down the length of the Nakago. (I think?)
 

[Nobody]

I believe that the blade is a genuine nihonto. The registration card in the first picture shows that the mei is 兼直 (Kanenao) and the blade length is 65.2 cm. I can see the same mei on its nakago.

[DocTheRoc]

2 minutes ago, Nobody said:

I believe that the blade is a genuine nihonto. The registration card in the first picture shows that the mei is 兼直 (Kanenao) and the blade length is 65.2 cm. I can see the same mei on its nakago.

That was my line of reasoning as well, but of course, I am not well-versed in identification. Kanenao has been the smith I was researching with the initial consignment photos, but it’s quite a large swath of time that Smiths signing as “Kanenao”; hopefully I’ll be able to get a better idea of the timeframe here  

[Rivkin]

Yasurime is of late type (shinshinto and later, though yes, there were some Kanbun examples supposedly worked like this, but its exceptionally rare), it is also done very sketchy - the lines are not parallel, the cuts are shallow, there is not forceful look expected from shinshinto, it was not patinated when finished and since then though patina is present, there are areas which remain patina free. 

I vote for WWII production.

[DocTheRoc]

8 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Yasurime is of late type (shinshinto and later, though yes, there were some Kanbun examples supposedly worked like this, but its exceptionally rare), it is also done very sketchy - the lines are not parallel, the cuts are shallow, there is not forceful look expected from shinshinto, it was not patinated when finished and since then though patina is present, there are areas which remain patina free. 

I vote for WWII production.

Thank you for your assessment! That’s very curious, do you think the patina/corrosion on the Nakago is artificial or accelerated in some way?

[Rivkin]

Just now, DocTheRoc said:

Thank you for your assessment! That’s very curious, do you think the patina/corrosion on the Nakago is artificial or accelerated in some way?

The patina looks older, maybe later half of Edo, Meiji, but these things can vary a lot. Meiji I think is an option, as is Bakumatsu, but I am still more comfortable with WWII piece which for some reason aged fast.

[DocTheRoc]

Just now, Rivkin said:

The patina looks older, maybe later half of Edo, Meiji, but these things can vary a lot. Meiji I think is an option, as is Bakumatsu, but I am still more comfortable with WWII piece which for some reason aged fast.

Thank you for your thoughts! It’s very much appreciated!  

[PNSSHOGUN]

This very much looks like a war time oil tempered blade with date and stamps removed, used for martial arts. 

[DocTheRoc]

4 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

This very much looks like a war time oil tempered blade with date and stamps removed, used for martial arts. 

Thanks! Interesting, I wonder why someone would go through the trouble of removing the dates and stamps, to then use it for martial arts (iaido/battodo?) anyway! I wonder where that puts the fittings, surely newer I assume? 

[DocTheRoc]

All - thank you very much for your assistance. Am I right in assuming, if this was indeed a Seki Arsenal blade, it probably should not have been cleared for export out of Japan? 

 

If it is a Showato…might explain why the stamp was filed off! 

[mecox]

As noted above looks to be (in Sesko) .... KANENAO (兼直)  , real name Ishihara Kanenao (石原金直), born May 25th 1908, he studied under Amachi Suzuichi (天地鈴市) and worked as a guntō smith. 

He was from Gifu, Kamo-gun, Tomioka-mura (Mia-ji). Looks to have made both Showato and gendaito.    Has blades with Seki and Sho-sakura stamps.  Oshigata show mei of:   Ishihara Kanenao saku (Seki);    Seki Ju Ishihara Kanenao saku (Sho);    Noshu Osugi Ju Ishihara Kanenao saku  (Seki)  [Osugi    大杉   maybe a village].   But looks like your blade was remounted is older fittings. 

 

There is also another Kanenao (in 1940 record:    KANENAO Yasu Kyoichi  (兼直　那須　京一)  also in Kamo-gun, Tomioka, but probably another village.    But no other record of him. 

 

[DocTheRoc]

1 hour ago, mecox said:

As noted above looks to be (in Sesko) .... KANENAO (兼直)  , real name Ishihara Kanenao (石原金直), born May 25th 1908, he studied under Amachi Suzuichi (天地鈴市) and worked as a guntō smith. 

He was from Gifu, Kamo-gun, Tomioka-mura (Mia-ji). Looks to have made both Showato and gendaito.    Has blades with Seki and Sho-sakura stamps.  Oshigata show mei of:   Ishihara Kanenao saku (Seki);    Seki Ju Ishihara Kanenao saku (Sho);    Noshu Osugi Ju Ishihara Kanenao saku  (Seki)  [Osugi    大杉   maybe a village].   But looks like your blade was remounted is older fittings. 

 

There is also another Kanenao (in 1940 record:    KANENAO Yasu Kyoichi  (兼直　那須　京一)  also in Kamo-gun, Tomioka, but probably another village.    But no other record of him. 

 

This is extremely interesting, thank you!! Especially the detail about the smith, and the fittings, I really do appreciate it  

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Vincent , it might be a good idea to seek opinions before you buy stuff like this rather than afterwards  .

[ROKUJURO]

9 hours ago, DocTheRoc said:

Here’s an additional picture that hopefully shows the Shinogi-ji down the length of the Nakago. (I think?)

Thank you Vincent,

that looks genuinely Japanese now, please excuse my wrong assumption. But as others wrote, the blade may be quite late.

[DocTheRoc]

6 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Hi Vincent , it might be a good idea to seek opinions before you buy stuff like this rather than afterwards  .

Hi there Ian! Why do you say that; should I be disappointed in the answers? Maybe it’s not what most people here want to see, and I do apologize for that if that’s the case - but ultimately it is or was a functional blade that someone clearly felt some sort of attachment to at one point or another and re-mounted in different fittings. 

 

Ultimately whether the stamp was removed for possession purposes, or the blade was fitted with antique or modern koshirae, or the blade was used for martial arts or not; I’m honored to continue whatever the humble story of this item might be, Showato or otherwise. 
 

One day I’ll get a Shinto or even Koto Nihontō, and I’ll be sure to ask or even purchase one from the community. But, in the meantime, I’m not disappointed by the answers, I’m just glad people took the time out of their day to help me  
 

 

 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Vincent , to be very blunt , the piece is a junker which you will  probably soon tire of . It has had the stamp removed and been mounted up in crummy old mounts to deceive people into thinking that it is a  genuine old Edo period sword .There are much better pieces available out there some of which will not break the bank .

[The Forest Ninja]

23 hours ago, DocTheRoc said:

 

Not sure who polished that blade. But normally, the Kissaki is polished perpendicular to the blade. 

[DocTheRoc]

3 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Hi Vincent , to be very blunt , the piece is a junker which you will  probably soon tire of . It has had the stamp removed and been mounted up in crummy old mounts to deceive people into thinking that it is a  genuine old Edo period sword .There are much better pieces available out there some of which will not break the bank .

I really appreciate your bluntness and willingness to help! You have the perspective of someone steeped in knowledge and appreciation for some of the most beautiful works of art to come out of Japan - genuine Nihontō with unique and well cared qualities. I really respect that seasoned viewpoint, and I respect that you are concerned with making sure I completely understand that quality bar moving forward. 
 

At the end of the day, this junker of a blade has taught me so much, through my research and the willingness of people like you to help me; about what to look for, how to differentiate time periods, how aspects of tempering and styles/signatures of the Nakago help provide historical context, and the parts of the Nihontō to most appreciate from an artistic and aesthetic perspective. I am honored and humbled by this experience, and I’ll always have that thanks to this item of someone’s shared history.  
 

Perhaps you are right, perhaps I will tire of this blade. Perhaps it was genuinely designed for nothing more than deception and foolishness. But I hope, ultimately, that it serves as a wonderful reminder of the way that a community of likeminded, well meaning collectors and historians came together to help me, for no other reason than a shared experience and love of the Japanese sword. 

 

I have this junker to thank, and I think I’ll always respect it for that. 
 

-Vincent

[KungFooey]

32 minutes ago, DocTheRoc said:

I really appreciate your bluntness and willingness to help! You have the perspective of someone steeped in knowledge and appreciation for some of the most beautiful works of art to come out of Japan - genuine Nihontō with unique and well cared qualities. I really respect that seasoned viewpoint, and I respect that you are concerned with making sure I completely understand that quality bar moving forward. 
 

At the end of the day, this junker of a blade has taught me so much, through my research and the willingness of people like you to help me; about what to look for, how to differentiate time periods, how aspects of tempering and styles/signatures of the Nakago help provide historical context, and the parts of the Nihontō to most appreciate from an artistic and aesthetic perspective. I am honored and humbled by this experience, and I’ll always have that thanks to this item of someone’s shared history.  
 

Perhaps you are right, perhaps I will tire of this blade. Perhaps it was genuinely designed for nothing more than deception and foolishness. But I hope, ultimately, that it serves as a wonderful reminder of the way that a community of likeminded, well meaning collectors and historians came together to help me, for no other reason than a shared experience and love of the Japanese sword. 

 

I have this junker to thank, and I think I’ll always respect it for that. 
 

-Vincent

A very eloquent reply, Vincent. Bravo!
I tend to become embittered when criticized on this forum and foolishly snap back - yours is by far the better attitude.

 

Moving onto your sword, I for one cannot see a removed stamp. If the previous comments refer to the corroded area just above and to the right of the mekugi-ana, it seems no deeper nor regular than the similar patches just below the hole.

 

Regards,

Dee

[DocTheRoc]

16 minutes ago, KungFooey said:

A very eloquent reply, Vincent. Bravo!
I tend to become embittered when criticized on this forum and foolishly snap back - yours is by far the better attitude.

 

Moving onto your sword, I for one cannot see a removed stamp. If the previous comments refer to the corroded area just above and to the right of the mekugi-ana, it seems no deeper nor regular than the similar patches just below the hole.

 

Regards,

Dee

 

Hi Dee! 
 

I took some additional photos with the flashlight on - which while the contrast is poor, I hoped would maybe show those areas of gradual patina a bit better - maybe rule in or out (or not?) that stamp. 

 

Btw, thank you so much for your kind words, I really do appreciate the opportunity to engage with this community over this piece of history - even if it’s not an ideal example. 
 

 

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, DocTheRoc said:

I have this junker to thank, and I think I’ll always respect it for that. 
 

Nicely said Vince nicely said I respect your calm I myself like Dee wouldn't have been so nice. 

[DocTheRoc]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Nicely said Vince nicely said I respect your calm I myself like Dee wouldn't have been so nice. 

Thank you Stephen, I do value everyone’s more seasoned opinions here, and constructive criticism; even if it’s said in a very open, honest way  

[Tohagi]

Bonjour Vincent,

 

I think the stamp place is uper just under the habaki, there is a like "rust hole"... I see a star when I close up.

Honestly, my first blade was not as good as this one, so just feel happy with it. The blade seem tired but overall healthy.

Kind regards,

Eric 

[ROKUJURO]

I don't see a star, but remains of a SHOWA stamp.

 

[KungFooey]

12 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

I don't see a star, but remains of a SHOWA stamp.

 

Hi Jean!

To be honest, I'm still not seeing a removed stamp. The mark you indicate is on the opposite side to the mei which would be unusual for a Showa stamp.

 

Also, when they are removed it's pretty obvious - just take a look at this old thread I found (apparently this one even got papers):

Gunto with NBTHK Hozon - Military Swords of Japan - Nihonto Message Board

[Brian]

This looks like a removed Seki stamp to me, and it's exactly where you would find a stamp.

 

[ROKUJURO]

17 minutes ago, KungFooey said:

Hi Jean!

To be honest, I'm still not seeing a removed stamp.....

Deanna,

you may be correct, it is not very clear. But on a TACHI MEI signed GUNTO, there could be a (SEKI - Brian is correct) stamp in this spot, and there are several - more or less competent - ways to try to erase it. 

So I should have correctly written "I believe I see". And then there are still my old eyes....