Expert Opinions, Please!

[Brian]

Jacques,
When you see a nakago jiri that is clearly cut off, multiple ana and a hi that is all in the nakago and doesn't extend into the blade.....I expect you immediately think faked to be older, whereas others immediately think o-suriage.
But I expect you're constantly walking around hearing zebra instead of horses.
They might fake mekugi ana and the jiri, but who on earth adds a short hi and patinates it for no reason?

[Matsunoki]

For our insulting keyboard warrior @Jacques who cannot see that this sugata clearly appears to be suriage nor is he able to see it clearly appears to be deformed with a downward stoop in the monouchi.

You just keep digging mate.

 

[Matsunoki]

On 2/26/2025 at 8:47 AM, Tohagi said:

By the way, anytime I'd mention "patriotic blades" (Kinnoto if I am right?) In Japan, I've got a strange reaction back from the nihonto community.

Is that because it is irrelevant? Rude? Or just politicaly touchy?

Hi Eric, not sure in what context you use the phrase “patriotic swords” in Japan. 
You mention Kinnoto…..I believe that word  is usually applied to a particular style of sword that was allegedly worn by supporters of the Emperor preceding and during the Meiji restoration. They are very long, very straight and with an exaggerated long nakago. I would not think the Japanese would react unfavourably if it was that type of sword you were referring to.

On the other hand if you were hinting at WW2 material with patriotic nakago inscriptions then that could well cause a reaction. Many Japanese want to let sleeping dogs lie as far as WW2 is concerned.

Just some thoughts. 

[Tohagi]

Thank you for the answer, I though my post had been drawned by the sand...

 

I asked after Kinnoto for a very long and straight shinshinto sword with a very long and suriage nakago that I'd posted here some time ago (in translation section).

 

Any time I used the word Kinnoto I had a very strange look back... like if I was saying something unappropriated and "No answer" just changing topic. 

 

Kind regards,

Eric 

[ROKUJURO]

13 hours ago, reinhard said:

There is something wrong with the sori (curvature) of the blade.

The monouchi-area seems to bow down.

This indicates a retempering of the upper part of the blade.

Close expertise (in hand) could solve this question....

I agree that the SORI (it has in fact become MU-SORI) in the MONO-UCHI is strange, BUT

a) if a blade is retempered the SORI usually becomes more pronounced because of the expansion of the martensite in the HA area.

b) you cannot "partly" retemper a blade because the hardness and HAMON would be lost in most of the rest of the blade

I believe that this odd shape is the result of 'cold deforming', i.e. a very heavy blow against a massive object like a tree stump. This cannot be repaired in my experience.

[Bruce Pennington]

I've emailed the owner, asking for another shot of the blade, with different lighting, different surface background.  I'll update if you sends us something.

[Jacques]

12 hours ago, Brian said:

Jacques,
When you see a nakago jiri that is clearly cut off, multiple ana and a hi that is all in the nakago and doesn't extend into the blade.....I expect you immediately think faked to be older, whereas others immediately think o-suriage.
But I expect you're constantly walking around hearing zebra instead of horses.
They might fake mekugi ana and the jiri, but who on earth adds a short hi and patinates it for no reason?

A picture of the nakago of a showato which was arranged to look far much older (i cleaned the mei) this sword is not suriage in no way just the nakago jiri was cut down and another mekugi-ana was drilled. 

 

I've a big doubt about the hi you mentionned

[Jacques]

Oh, i forgot that 

 

https://dictionary.c...onary/english/appear

[Matsunoki]

38 minutes ago, Jacques said:

Oh, i forgot that 

You really are sad Jacques. A scientist with intelligence playing silly semantics when you would be better to leave it alone.  Arguing about one word and ignoring the actual issue under debate. Oh well if it makes you happy……yes you are right. 

[Jacques]

Brian 

 

How many swords have you actually really held? 
Ubu nakago (one mekugi ana filled)

[reinhard]

11 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

I agree that the SORI (it has in fact become MU-SORI) in the MONO-UCHI is strange, BUT

a) if a blade is retempered the SORI usually becomes more pronounced because of the expansion of the martensite in the HA area.

b) you cannot "partly" retemper a blade because the hardness and HAMON would be lost in most of the rest of the blade

I believe that this odd shape is the result of 'cold deforming', i.e. a very heavy blow against a massive object like a tree stump. This cannot be repaired in my experience.

 

Thing is: We can tell, what the real hamon is.

To me it looks cosmetically added in the monouchi-area.

 

a) is correct when the heated blade is plunged into water horizontally; the proper way.

It is a dfferent thing when the partially heated blade is plunged into water vertically with the tip downwards.

 

b) is definitely correct, but again:

We haven't seen the real hamon yet, just vague pixels.

 

reinhard

[Brian]

Jacques,
You think you can prove something by finding the occasional and rare outlier?
And you call yourself a scientist? Sheesh.

[Jacques]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Jacques,
You think you can prove something by finding the occasional and rare outlier?
And you call yourself a scientist? Sheesh.

In science, all it takes is one example to disprove a theory and they are not so rare specially in some schools  . Back to the sword in discussion, suriage or not, is has the sugata of a kinnoto (勤王刀). 

[Brian]

Ok...so let's hear you commit to an opinion. Based on the pics above, and in your opinion (you don't have to state categorically, just what you consider most likely given what we see) is this suriage or not?
Don't want to hear "can't decide based on the info presented" since life and collecting is about making a call based on what you see, wrong or right. What's your call?

[Jacques]

All that i can say is that it is impossible to see if this sword was suriage or not without having it in hands. All that you say is pure speculation  

https://www.nihontom...articles/Suriage.pdf

[Bugyotsuji]

Right before the Meiji Restoration, long swords (approx. 3 feet) with no curvature were made.  Sa Yukihide (from Tosa) forged this type of sword.  Saigo Takamori (西郷隆盛)、 Sakamoto Ryoma (坂本龍馬) owned this type of swords.  Both are famous historical characters during the Meiji Restoration, called Meiji Ishin (明治維新).  Both of them were a part of the Kin’no-to (勤皇党) group which supported the Emperor and renewed the political system.

 

Kinno-To – Study of Japanese Sword

[Tohagi]

Thank you Piers,

Is the subject of Kinno-to sensitive in any way in Japan?

 

Kind regards, 

Eric 

[Matsunoki]

My Kinnoto….(since sold) and my bronze of Sakamoto Ryoma.

Apologies for further topic drift,

 

 

 

[Tohagi]

Absolutely beautifull blade!

 

Really fantastic!

[Bruce Pennington]

Got these in from the owner, but don't think he showed enough to answer your question about a bend.  I've asked him for more blade, and he said he's send when able:

[Bruce Pennington]

Here are the updated photos:

 

I believe the impression of a bend comes from puff in the towel and/or lighting.