Scogg Posted February 19 Report Posted February 19 Hi Dee, It’s a nice looking sword, and that photography captures a lot. I’m looking forward to hearing your observations when you get the blade in your possession and can view it yourself. To answer the original question, it really depends on a couple factors for me: Would I ever buy something “top tier” for my collection, with a high price tag, that I know is Gimei? No, I wouldn’t. I would be patient for the right item that speaks to me, and checks ALL my boxes. Would I buy a sword on the lower end of my collecting budget, that’s gimei, to enjoy for a while and maybe sell down the road at a potential loss? Sure! If I like everything else about the blade enough. Just my two cents, -Sam 1
KungFooey Posted February 20 Author Report Posted February 20 Thank you Sam - I should have it in hand soon. I bid on things from the States and have it sent to my brother who is stationed in Japan. He then sends it on to me or brings it over when he's on leave. I totally agree with your views on buying a gimei blade or not. The reason I bought this one was because of the beauty of the blade itself and the fact it had been put into fresh polish and a good quality shirasaya very recently. That, plus the fact it only cost me $460. If they'd actually been asking the going rate for the swordsmith whose signature is counterfeited upon the blade, then it would've been so far out of my league anyway as to be ridiculous! Regards, Dee
sabiji Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 Here is a picture of the Hada of a Kinju judged O-Suriage Waki. From today's perspective, Kinju is considered the founder of the Mino-Seki tradition. But first and foremost he came from the Yamato-Senjuin tradition. Early Mino should therefore first be viewed from the Yamato tradition, in which Soshu characteristics were more or less strongly and experimentally interwoven. The question of various generations of Kinju is a separate field of research and would lead too far here. Personally, I subscribe to the idea that the original legendary seki founder Motoshige and Shodai Kinju are one and the same person, and that the nidai was essentially created in the middle Nanbokucho. 2
KungFooey Posted February 20 Author Report Posted February 20 2 hours ago, sabiji said: Here is a picture of the Hada of a Kinju judged O-Suriage Waki. From today's perspective, Kinju is considered the founder of the Mino-Seki tradition. But first and foremost he came from the Yamato-Senjuin tradition. Early Mino should therefore first be viewed from the Yamato tradition, in which Soshu characteristics were more or less strongly and experimentally interwoven. The question of various generations of Kinju is a separate field of research and would lead too far here. Personally, I subscribe to the idea that the original legendary seki founder Motoshige and Shodai Kinju are one and the same person, and that the nidai was essentially created in the middle Nanbokucho. Hi Thomas, Thank you! That's a very informative photograph and also a fascinating theory! I'm only learning about Kinju in some depth now as a result of buying this tanto - which, as I've said from the beginning, I know must be immediately considered gimei. However, here is my blade's hada for comparison.
Lewis B Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 7 minutes ago, KungFooey said: Hi Thomas, Thank you! That's a very informative photograph and also a fascinating theory! I'm only learning about Kinju in some depth now as a result of buying this tanto - which, as I've said from the beginning, I know must be immediately considered gimei. However, here is my blade's hada for comparison. I would say your hada leans more towards Norishige than Kinju. 1 1
KungFooey Posted February 20 Author Report Posted February 20 45 minutes ago, Lewis B said: I would say your hada leans more towards Norishige than Kinju. Hi Lewis, I read a lot about Etchū Norishige following Ian Brooks' amazing find in 2018. I presume he left a school spanning many centuries and this blade could have been made by one of the many smiths in that tradition? Views have tended to think this is probably Edo period, possibly Shin-Shinto. Dee PS: just found photos of one of the original Norishige's blades and I can see what you mean about the hada. (photo added)
sabiji Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 If it were all that simple... I was lucky enough to acquire a Kaneyuki (Ko-Wakizashi) from a German member of the NBTHK-EB, who is also represented here in the forum. Kaneyuki is often traded as the son or younger brother of Kinju. Both blades, that of Kaneyuki and that of my Kinju, are noticeably different in character. Kaneyuki's hada is also very dense, but it shows considerably more nagare and is more hadatatsu - just as you would imagine a good portion of soshu to be. My Kinju's hataraki are finer and more subtle, while Kaneyuki's are more obvious and clear. There are also stylistic differences within the blades attributed to Kinju. The Fine Hada of Dmitry's Kinju is very similar to my Kinju. Other works, also frequently found in Tanto, show a pronounced Itame-Nagare. 1. one must not forget one thing: among the juyo there are only 5 or 6 signed works by Kinju. One is a tachi, the rest are tanto or ko-waki. As far as I know, there are no signed works by Kaneyuki. The majority are pure attributions to the best of our knowledge and belief with the current status. 2 In the Nanbokucho, an incredible number of swordsmiths immigrated to the provinces of Kaga, Etchu, Echizen and Mino. The majority were swordsmiths of the Yamato tradition, but also the successors of the Rai school and so on. Then there was the influence of Soshu-Den, which was spread throughout Japan by the so-called Masamune students. So it was also a very diverse, experimental time! It is therefore very difficult to say that certain schools or swordsmiths had just one style. Shizu blades differ, Norishige blades differ, Tametsugu blades differ, etc... 1
KungFooey Posted February 20 Author Report Posted February 20 42 minutes ago, sabiji said: If it were all that simple... I was lucky enough to acquire a Kaneyuki (Ko-Wakizashi) from a German member of the NBTHK-EB, who is also represented here in the forum. Kaneyuki is often traded as the son or younger brother of Kinju. Both blades, that of Kaneyuki and that of my Kinju, are noticeably different in character. Kaneyuki's hada is also very dense, but it shows considerably more nagare and is more hadatatsu - just as you would imagine a good portion of soshu to be. My Kinju's hataraki are finer and more subtle, while Kaneyuki's are more obvious and clear. There are also stylistic differences within the blades attributed to Kinju. The Fine Hada of Dmitry's Kinju is very similar to my Kinju. Other works, also frequently found in Tanto, show a pronounced Itame-Nagare. 1. one must not forget one thing: among the juyo there are only 5 or 6 signed works by Kinju. One is a tachi, the rest are tanto or ko-waki. As far as I know, there are no signed works by Kaneyuki. The majority are pure attributions to the best of our knowledge and belief with the current status. 2 In the Nanbokucho, an incredible number of swordsmiths immigrated to the provinces of Kaga, Etchu, Echizen and Mino. The majority were swordsmiths of the Yamato tradition, but also the successors of the Rai school and so on. Then there was the influence of Soshu-Den, which was spread throughout Japan by the so-called Masamune students. So it was also a very diverse, experimental time! It is therefore very difficult to say that certain schools or swordsmiths had just one style. Shizu blades differ, Norishige blades differ, Tametsugu blades differ, etc... I'm actually cutting and pasting your comments Thomas, in an effort to learn from everything you're telling me. One question if I may? In your original comment you said of Kinju that the "nidai was essentially created in the middle Nanbokucho". Could I ask what you meant by that? "Created" as in invented or another smith assumed the name etc? Thank you, Dee
sabiji Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 Please excuse me, my English is miserable. It is generally assumed that Kinju was active in the Nanbokucho period. The most important argument is 1. the sugata of the works attributed to him, and 2. the typical Soshu style mix of that period. In my opinion, there are no existing dated works (except your dagger), at least not among the registered juyo. All dates are from oshigata of blades that either no longer exist or whose whereabouts are unknown. These dates cover the period between 1346 and 1369. The life dates from the Koto Meizukushi Taizen place Kinju much earlier and do not match the dates documented in Oshigata at all. However, there is a record of the Sanami school from 1450 (Seki Kaji no Koto) which states that the (legendary) Motoshige came to Mino in 1319/20. This dating is plausible insofar as Kaneuji also moved to Fuwa/Mino for the first time at this time, close to the Mino kokubunji there. This is exactly the time when the migration of Yamato swordsmiths began. At that time it was still in anticipation of the impending conflict between Go Daigo and his supporters (Mino -> Toki clan) and the Hojo regents and their vassals. Kaneuji, for example, changed the kanji Kane in his name after moving to Mino. Why wouldn't Motoshige have done the same and changed his name to Kaneshige? It is perfectly normal for swordsmiths to change their names at certain stages of their lives. But the Motoshige = Kinju (Shodai) variant is just my theory. There is no evidence for it. 1 1
atm Posted February 20 Report Posted February 20 Thanks for posting this @KungFooey. I think you got a beautiful blade for $460–quite a bargain regardless of gimei—and the ensuing discussion has been fascinating. I hope the blade is even better when you see it in person! When I first considered the initial question, I thought I would answer with an unequivocal “no.” But that blade at that price would make me reconsider my answer. 2
KungFooey Posted February 20 Author Report Posted February 20 2 hours ago, sabiji said: Please excuse me, my English is miserable. It is generally assumed that Kinju was active in the Nanbokucho period. The most important argument is 1. the sugata of the works attributed to him, and 2. the typical Soshu style mix of that period. In my opinion, there are no existing dated works (except your dagger), at least not among the registered juyo. All dates are from oshigata of blades that either no longer exist or whose whereabouts are unknown. These dates cover the period between 1346 and 1369. The life dates from the Koto Meizukushi Taizen place Kinju much earlier and do not match the dates documented in Oshigata at all. However, there is a record of the Sanami school from 1450 (Seki Kaji no Koto) which states that the (legendary) Motoshige came to Mino in 1319/20. This dating is plausible insofar as Kaneuji also moved to Fuwa/Mino for the first time at this time, close to the Mino kokubunji there. This is exactly the time when the migration of Yamato swordsmiths began. At that time it was still in anticipation of the impending conflict between Go Daigo and his supporters (Mino -> Toki clan) and the Hojo regents and their vassals. Kaneuji, for example, changed the kanji Kane in his name after moving to Mino. Why wouldn't Motoshige have done the same and changed his name to Kaneshige? It is perfectly normal for swordsmiths to change their names at certain stages of their lives. But the Motoshige = Kinju (Shodai) variant is just my theory. There is no evidence for it. Thomas, your English is absolutely superb! Your historical recaps and your theories are so interesting to read. Well, I guess that's makes my dagger the only dated piece of Kinju's work in existence - I'd better get it straight off to the NBTHK Shinsa. 😂 1
KungFooey Posted February 20 Author Report Posted February 20 4 minutes ago, atm said: Thanks for posting this @KungFooey. I think you got a beautiful blade for $460–quite a bargain regardless of gimei—and the ensuing discussion has been fascinating. I hope the blade is even better when you see it in person! When I first considered the initial question, I thought I would answer with an unequivocal “no.” But that blade at that price would make me reconsider my answer. Thank you Adam!! My brother in Japan already has it and is sending me photos. I honestly don't know what the catch is yet; every time I see it, it looks better and better. It was all like something out of a movie - I lucked across someone who was virtually giving it away considering the work that has been done on it. No shop, not a dealer. He placed it on an auction site at 2am as 'buy it now' and I grabbed it immediately. Who knows- maybe the blade is haunted? Dee
KungFooey Posted February 20 Author Report Posted February 20 3 hours ago, Okan said: No offense! @Jacques I wouldn't argue with that old guy, Okan - I know mine is gimei! 😂
Bugyotsuji Posted February 21 Report Posted February 21 2 hours ago, KungFooey said: I wouldn't argue with that old guy, Okan - I know mine is gimei! 😂 How sure are you, as a percentage? (PS I watched someone buying a fairly good-looking tanto with a Muramasa Mei yesterday for US $500.) 1
KungFooey Posted February 21 Author Report Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said: How sure are you, as a percentage? (PS I watched someone buying a fairly good-looking tanto with a Muramasa Mei yesterday for US $500.) 99%; it has a good quality polish which brings out all the details and an expensive shirasaya with horn additions. While these are not brand spanking new (the polish has a couple of very minor scratches and the saya has a few dings and a slightly 'aged wood' tone) they are both recent enough to suggest a failed submission to shinsa in the last several years. This is especially likely as it was sourced from Hokkaido in Japan. Lastly, what are the chances? Really? I'm just not that lucky. 1
David Flynn Posted February 21 Report Posted February 21 My speculation is, the smith made a Utushi, and when he saw it was happy and decided to put the smiths name who he copied. Either that, or it was made to fool. 1
KungFooey Posted February 21 Author Report Posted February 21 48 minutes ago, David Flynn said: My speculation is, the smith made a Utushi, and when he saw it was happy and decided to put the smiths name who he copied. Either that, or it was made to fool. I guess we'll never know, David.
Shugyosha Posted February 21 Report Posted February 21 Dee, If you have to scratch the 1% itch at some point, would it be worth considering the NTHK instead? Even if it gets pink slipped, unlike with the NBTHK, you'll generally get some information from the worksheet and that might give an idea as to whether or not it would be worth pursuing further i.e. go direct to NBTHK shinsa or have the signature taken off, tang re-patinated and resubmit either to the NTHK or NBTHK. Ultimately, it's whether or not you think its worth sinking more money into the blade - I don't know what the cost is in Japan, but the American branch is charging $250. You could also wait until you've seen the blade in hand and take a view then - there's normally an NTHK shinsa in the USA each year. https://nthkamerica.com/shinsa-faq 2
KungFooey Posted February 21 Author Report Posted February 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, Shugyosha said: Dee, If you have to scratch the 1% itch at some point, would it be worth considering the NTHK instead? Even if it gets pink slipped, unlike with the NBTHK, you'll generally get some information from the worksheet and that might give an idea as to whether or not it would be worth pursuing further i.e. go direct to NBTHK shinsa or have the signature taken off, tang re-patinated and resubmit either to the NTHK or NBTHK. Ultimately, it's whether or not you think its worth sinking more money into the blade - I don't know what the cost is in Japan, but the American branch is charging $250. You could also wait until you've seen the blade in hand and take a view then - there's normally an NTHK shinsa in the USA each year. https://nthkamerica.com/shinsa-faq Hi John! This tanto seems to have generated far more interest and dialogue than I ever imagined. Indeed, the comments have been almost universally highly informative, very encouraging and generally complimentary and/or witty. There was one exception of course but I'm starting to get the impression (from a very kind and supportive PM I received) that this person, as a 'high-roller' in the hobby, may feel aggrieved that such an ignorant plebe as myself is even daring to discuss a blade purporting to be by such a historically important smith as Kinju. But disregarding them, I'm learning (and then researching) a lot about both the Soshu and Mino schools thanks to the other contributors. The whole 'Go-Den' history is very complicated for me but, with their help and advice, I'm slowly moving up from 'complete plebe' to 'motivated novice'. As to your question about a '1% itch', of course it's there! The general consensus here seems to be that the blade is obviously not by Kinju but was produced by a reasonably able smith, whether Shin Shinto or earlier. Therefore, I might ask my brother to hold onto it while I decide what to do. (I had a FaceTime with him today and it was a real comedy of errors with him trying to photograph the tanto and me shouting instructions. Below are the very fuzzy results.🙄) The NTHK may well be the way forward - thank you for the suggestion! Dee Edited February 21 by KungFooey Tried to enhance photos. 1 1
KungFooey Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 I was looking at a Japanese site which talks about a genuine Kinju tanto. After AI translating this part, describing why the style of dagger changed from the previous period, I'm pretty glad that my mine is a fake. 身幅広く、重ね薄く、浅く反る大振り※は南北朝時代に流行した。これはそれまでの短刀が刺すことを主要用途としていたことに対し、首級や耳、鼻などを撮き切る合風始が発生したことによる
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 I personally wouldn't waste my time with NTHK. You have enough research on this thread to reasonably inform you of what you have. More knowledge on this thread than NTHK to be sure. What will their "opinion" tell you that you dont already know? 1
KungFooey Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 25 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said: What will their "opinion" tell you that you dont already know? Maybe who actually made it and when? I don't know that.
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 Just now, KungFooey said: Maybe who actually made it and when? I don't know that. no chance IMO since its Gimei
KungFooey Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 3 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said: no chance IMO since its Gimei I think maybe you're mixing up the NTHK with the NBTHK. The latter hardly tell you anything, even when a blade passes. The former gives notes on the pink fail slip about why it's failed and what they think it is.
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 28 minutes ago, KungFooey said: I think maybe you're mixing up the NTHK with the NBTHK. The latter hardly tell you anything, even when a blade passes. The former gives notes on the pink fail slip about why it's failed and what they think it is. Perhaps. Maybe pertinent to submit two times at two different shinsa. If the results differ, submit a third time. Continue to submit until reaching concordance.
Alex A Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 We learn that sometimes it takes thick skin to show off a blade here, but if folks didn't then we would have less to talk about lol. So cheers Dee. Bit lost in this thread now, is that pic above your blade?, with the long Kaeri ? Off top of head, thats a known Uda feature 1
Lewis B Posted February 23 Report Posted February 23 6 minutes ago, Alex A said: Bit lost in this thread now, is that pic above your blade?, with the long Kaeri ? Yes it's the blade in question. 1
KungFooey Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 46 minutes ago, Alex A said: We learn that sometimes it takes thick skin to show off a blade here, but if folks didn't then we would have less to talk about lol. So cheers Dee. Bit lost in this thread now, is that pic above your blade?, with the long Kaeri ? Off top of head, thats a known Uda feature Thanks Alex, I'll go and research Uda now.👍
KungFooey Posted February 23 Author Report Posted February 23 49 minutes ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said: Perhaps. Maybe pertinent to submit two times at two different shinsa. If the results differ, submit a third time. Continue to submit until reaching concordance. Oh, I see! So that's what you do to get a blade papered? Wow - sounds expensive.
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