Would you knowingly buy a gimei blade?

[Bugyotsuji]

There are so many moving-goalpost differing renderings of the characters for 金重 Kinju/Kaneshige presented above that there must be at least one authoritative work or study on this Mei out there, if not several. My feeling after reading through this entertaining and educational thread, is that the quality of the work itself must be the arbiter.

 

If you enjoy the obvious quality of your blade, you have a fabulous study piece there Dee, at a bargain basement price. And remember too that many people seem to be happy to collect gimei pieces, that there is a market for them. Perhaps it is the inherent romantic or exciting possibilities that titillate the senses? Take courage! Congratulations!

[Hoshi]

You did well. 

 

It's better than most Kinju I've seen. If it was Kinju, it would most likely express the rather regular gunome hamon in nie deki. 

 

This work is more interesting. It is aiming for Norishige school. There is conspicuous chickei, sunagashi, and rather coarse ara-nie. 

 

The relatively coarse ara-nie, thick kasane, and somewhat 'contrived' quality of the chickei does rather speak towards Shinshinto work that tries hard to emulate Koto. I think, with the signature, it was probably an entire package made with the intention to mislead.  

 

However...

 

There is a chance that it is a healthy Koto piece. The photos doesn't show everything unfortunately, but I wouldn't rule out Tametsugu here if the work was mumei. 

 

In any case, to me, this is more exciting than some Kinju. 

 

Buying a Gimei blade? No, not a full blown gimei, not today. When I started, then certainly yes. 

 

As it stands in 2025, my limit would be "To mei ga aru" if the piece showed remarkable qualities. I like research pieces. 

 

[Mark S.]

Back to the main topic… I have 2 gimei blades.
 

First is a Hizen Tadahiro signed katana but deemed gimei by NTHK-NPO, but still judged as a Hizen blade of same approximate time period as Tadahiro with exact same workmanship.  
 

Second blade is an Awataguchi Tadatsuna wakizashi deemed gimei by NTHK, but still judged as a lower level student of Tadatsuna and blade exhibits typical Awataguchi traits.  
 

So if you want to study schools and activity, and aren’t worried about who you show it to or the naysayers, I have no problem with gimei… especially at a fraction of the price.

[KungFooey]

2 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

There are so many moving-goalpost differing renderings of the characters for 金重 Kinju/Kaneshige presented above that there must be at least one authoritative work or study on this Mei out there, if not several. My feeling after reading through this entertaining and educational thread, is that the quality of the work itself must be the arbiter.

 

If you enjoy the obvious quality of your blade, you have a fabulous study piece there Dee, at a bargain basement price. And remember too that many people seem to be happy to collect gimei pieces, that there is a market for them. Perhaps it is the inherent romantic or exciting possibilities that titillate the senses? Take courage! Congratulations!

Thank you dear Piers!

 

If it had been unsigned, I wouldn't have hesitated to buy this blade. I have hardly any knowledge of the great masters, their schools and the attributes of their work. I simply know what appeals to me visually. Something I had always wanted to eventually obtain was a large, hirazukuri tanto or wakizashi in good condition and showing a lot of activity - and here it was at an extremely affordable price.

I've learned a lot from this thread and I think it's fairly obvious that the maker was trying to imitate the second generation Kinju rather than the first - the nengo of Jōji(貞治)2 (1363) seems to confirm this. Why he chose the nidai rather than the shodai is a mystery.

As to it being an obvious gimei, how many bushi in Japanese history were walking around wearing blades they knew couldn't be the product of the maker whose name they bore? Heck, when you received a Masamune from Tokugawa Ieiyasu, you knew it had probably been made the month before.
So, I just feel I'm carrying on a noble, old tradition!

 

Dee

[KungFooey]

2 hours ago, Hoshi said:

You did well. 

 

It's better than most Kinju I've seen. If it was Kinju, it would most likely express the rather regular gunome hamon in nie deki. 

 

This work is more interesting. It is aiming for Norishige school. There is conspicuous chickei, sunagashi, and rather coarse ara-nie. 

 

The relatively coarse ara-nie, thick kasane, and somewhat 'contrived' quality of the chickei does rather speak towards Shinshinto work that tries hard to emulate Koto. I think, with the signature, it was probably an entire package made with the intention to mislead.  

 

However...

 

There is a chance that it is a healthy Koto piece. The photos doesn't show everything unfortunately, but I wouldn't rule out Tametsugu here if the work was mumei. 

 

In any case, to me, this is more exciting than some Kinju. 

 

Buying a Gimei blade? No, not a full blown gimei, not today. When I started, then certainly yes. 

 

As it stands in 2025, my limit would be "To mei ga aru" if the piece showed remarkable qualities. I like research pieces. 

 

Thank you Chris!

 

Your appraisal of my blade is absolutely fascinating! It provides me with both clues as to its origin and the other schools I should look at which possibly influenced its unknown maker.

 

I can just imagine some Bakumatsu period samurai bragging about his "family heirloom Kinju" (which he had commissioned just the month before)!

 

Dee

[reinhard]

Gimei is gimei and that's that.

"nihonto-museum" is no valuable reference at all.

 

And yes: Guido is a real character, always was.

Sadly enough he is not able to participate anymore.

As for you , "Dee", I have my doubts who you really are.

Playing the "Lady-bonus" here for somebody else ?

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

[KungFooey]

2 hours ago, Mark S. said:

Back to the main topic… I have 2 gimei blades.
 

First is a Hizen Tadahiro signed katana but deemed gimei by NTHK-NPO, but still judged as a Hizen blade of same approximate time period as Tadahiro with exact same workmanship.  
 

Second blade is an Awataguchi Tadatsuna wakizashi deemed gimei by NTHK, but still judged as a lower level student of Tadatsuna and blade exhibits typical Awataguchi traits.  
 

So if you want to study schools and activity, and aren’t worried about who you show it to or the naysayers, I have no problem with gimei… especially at a fraction of the price.

May I ask Mark if you suspected they might not paper to the exact mei when you bought them or did you expect them to pass 'as is'?
Either way, it must have been frustrating as h&ll to be so close! 
 

Dee

[KungFooey]

2 minutes ago, reinhard said:

As for you , "Dee", I have my doubts who you really are.

Playing the "Lady-bonus" here for somebody else ?

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

 

Well Reinhard, 

I've already been accused of such by others on here so I'll tell you what I think.

 

A woman joins a group of predominantly old men and when she doesn't act like Mary Poppins and fights back (admittedly sometimes being crude in the process) then 'she can't possibly be female and has to be an impostor'. 

That's about as sexist as it gets.

 

Anyhow, thanks for your deep and meaningful insights about gimei. 

 

Dee

[reinhard]

Playing the "sexist card" is about what I expected.

 

Just don't bother us with childish and silly emojis any more.

 

reinhard

[KungFooey]

1 minute ago, reinhard said:

Playing the "sexist card" is about what I expected.

 

Just don't bother us with childish and silly emojis any more.

 

reinhard

Reinhard,

 

This is a thread I created and you are not welcome on it. Kindly go away.

 

I assure you I will not comment on any of your threads nor interact with you in any other way.

[reinhard]

Who cares?

I don't.

 

reinhard

[KungFooey]

Just now, reinhard said:

Who cares?

I don't.

 

reinhard

Amusingly, for someone who's just been accused of imitating another gender, I always imagine the petulant words "Who cares? I don't." coming out of the mouth of a naughty five-year-old girl with ringlets. 😂

[Stephen]

There we are then

[Mark S.]

2 hours ago, KungFooey said:

May I ask Mark if you suspected they might not paper to the exact mei when you bought them or did you expect them to pass 'as is'?
Either way, it must have been frustrating as h&ll to be so close! 
 

Dee

The Tadahiro I bought without papers.  The mei was sketchy, but it did come with a Kanzan Sato sayagaki.  I was given some advice by some well known people in the field who felt it was gimei and when I submitted for papers it was also deemed gimei so it did not come as a surprise.  A couple of the people who advised me did say something along the lines of “you can see why whoever added the gimei signature chose this blade… it was a clear Hizen blade and it would be easier to pass as a Tadahiro”.  Now, the sayagaki?  Three choices…

1) sayagaki is gimei,

2) someone matched this blade to a different signed saya, or

3) Kanzan Sato got this one wrong.  
 

The Tadatsuna blade I bought with the pink paper.  Seller did not try to hide the fact blade was gimei.  I still liked the blade and it was an example of a Awataguchi blade I could study in hand.  It wasn’t perfect or the best example, but it was nice and I liked it.  

[KungFooey]

13 minutes ago, Mark S. said:

The Tadahiro I bought without papers.  The mei was sketchy, but it did come with a Kanzan Sato sayagaki.  I was given some advice by some well known people in the field who felt it was gimei and when I submitted for papers it was also deemed gimei so it did not come as a surprise.  A couple of the people who advised me did say something along the lines of “you can see why whoever added the gimei signature chose this blade… it was a clear Hizen blade and it would be easier to pass as a Tadahiro”.  Now, the sayagaki?  Three choices…

1) sayagaki is gimei,

2) someone matched this blade to a different signed saya, or

3) Kanzan Sato got this one wrong.  
 

The Tadatsuna blade I bought with the pink paper.  Seller did not try to hide the fact blade was gimei.  I still liked the blade and it was an example of a Awataguchi blade I could study in hand.  It wasn’t perfect or the best example, but it was nice and I liked it.  

Thank you Mark!

Both for getting this thread back on track and for explaining your enjoyment of two blades that you either suspected or knew to be gimei.

I can totally relate! 

Dee

[Rivkin]

21 hours ago, KungFooey said:

Ah well, fools rush in. I got it anyway!

It's a long, hirazukuri tanto.

Seller's photos.

It would help to see the entire blade, sugata etc., but so far it looks like a nice Tsunahiro.

[KungFooey]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

It would help to see the entire blade, sugata etc., but so far it looks like a nice Tsunahiro.

I hope these help.

[Deiro]

I guess I need to send a relative to Japan...

[Shugyosha]

39 minutes ago, Deiro said:

I guess I need to send a relative to Japan...

 

I'll be your relative.

[Rivkin]

Yes, it does look like one of Tsunahiro's generations or someone very similar, Muromachi to early-mid Edo. I personally think its Edo generations.

[Jacques]

 

Quote

you have a fabulous study piece there Dee

I've always wondered what you mean by “study piece”. For me, all quality swords signed, shoshin and in good polished condition are worthy of study (blade in hand, of course as you can't learn anything from photos).

[David Flynn]

I'm going to be quite bold here.  I believe this could be a Shinshinto, blade.

[Jacques]

Dee@ 

 

Nengo on your tanto is the same than the one of the oshigata : Juji ni hachi gatsu ni hi (torokusho is erroneous on this)

I am with David on a shinshinto blade. Is the mune mitsu or iori ?

[Lewis B]

.

[Alex A]

I dont see Shinshinto, not with the nakago and worn horimono.

[CSM101]

It doesn´t matter if it is Koto, Shinto or ShinShinto. All that matters is: it is a Japanese sword with an inscription and a fair price tag.

 

And Dee likes it.

[Franco D]

 

 

 

The Japanese write that 'Kantei is the foundation for Japanese sword appreciation.'

They are correct in every sense.

 

'Forgive them for they know not what they do.' 

 

Principles.pdf

 

 

https://www.pbs.org/...hailand/buddhism.htm

[Tohagi]

To answer to the topic...

I will!

I had in hand a fabulous sword, I was sure it was Kanemoto,  ...and the meï was kanemoto judged gimeï.

It it wasn't for the Kiyomitsu, I would have buy it.

 

By the way, I really like your tanto.

beautifull bright hada...

Don't feel shinshinto to me...but who knows.

 

Kindly

Eric  

[KungFooey]

On 2/17/2025 at 9:12 PM, Jacques said:

Dee@ 

 

Nengo on your tanto is the same than the one of the oshigata : Juji ni hachi gatsu ni hi (torokusho is erroneous on this)

I am with David on a shinshinto blade. Is the mune mitsu or iori ?

Thank you so much Jacques!

 

I think both you and David are correct - the mune is iori whereas the real Kinju forged mitsu.

[KungFooey]

On 2/17/2025 at 11:22 PM, CSM101 said:

It doesn´t matter if it is Koto, Shinto or ShinShinto. All that matters is: it is a Japanese sword with an inscription and a fair price tag.

 

And Dee likes it.

That's exactly how I feel, Uwe.

 

Thank you for wording it so well!

 

Dee