Are contemporary swordsmiths having gimei copies made of their work?

[KungFooey]

I'm not talking Living National Treasures or even Mukansa - just average, jobbing swordsmiths who also make things like kitchen knives.

 

 

I was thinking about a gendaito by Shirô Yasumitsu (real name Komiya Yasumitsu) from Fukuoka prefecture. However, comparing the mei on this 2002 blade (right) and one dated 1997 from a respected dealer (left), they look completely different. The chisel size, kanji shapes and even the depth of stroke look wrong.

But why would anyone even bother to fake this tosho?

 

Thanks,

Dee

[Shugyosha]

Hi Dee,

I think in this hobby you never say never, so it may be someone is faking his signature but there may be other reasons why his signature differs:

• There's a five year difference between the signatures and people's signatures change over time - this is the case with pen and paper so the difference may be more pronounced when using a hammer and chisel? Just guessing as I've never used one in this way;
• Something, maybe an injury or a significant life event made him change the style of his signature (Tsuda Sukehiro is famous for signing in grass script rather than the block style script later in his life) - in this case he's also changed the characters used for the province where he lives - Chikugo to Chikushu;
• The smith doesn't do his own caligraphy and the person used to sign the tangs changed for some reason;

What do the two swords look like from the point of view of workmanship? If they look similar in terms of style and quality then there's probably an explanation other than forgery involved and do these swords come with any certification from the smith himself? I'm not talking NBTHK etc but modern smiths will often certify their work as genuinely made by them (it may even be a legal requirement that they do) so if these swords come with any paperwork, it might be possible to compare that too.

 

There's an interesting thread here on comaring mei if you haven't read it:

 

 

[Brian]

I don't think you are going to fine many forgeries on shinsakuto, especially ones that are still alive. Too easy to contact and check with the actual smith.
The few we see from sellers like Komonjo etc are easily identified by the work, and the source. When you have a dealer in Japan, I see far less chance and not much point.
The differences can easily be explained by factors like John explained, as well as things like changing the chisels over time and maybe having a deshi assist.
Wouldn't be too concerned as long as the work is similar  and appropriate.

[KungFooey]

Thank you John @Shugyosha!

You always come to my aid and answer my questions thoughtfully and helpfully. I really appreciate it.

 

Dee

[PNSSHOGUN]

There are most definitely forgeries out there, though they tend to target the Ningen Kokuho smiths that have passed away, nothing is sacred on yahoo Japan auctions. With Komiya Kunimitsu, there have been multiple generations signing with the same name since after the war. That may also be the case with Yasumitsu if he had a student?

[Alex A]

To me, a good demonstration of why i sometimes find it a bit silly when folks start to discuss mei without even discussing the sword.

[KungFooey]

18 minutes ago, Alex A said:

To me, a good demonstration of why i sometimes find it a bit silly when folks start to discuss mei without even discussing the sword.

My question was whether shinsakuto by non-famous smiths were currently being forged (in the illegal sense). The two Johns and Brian answered this question thoughtfully and made some very good points.

I was not asking whether the specific mei was judged genuine or not - so I'm not quite sure what you were trying to contribute by your comment, if anything.

[ROKUJURO]

Deanna,

If I am correctly informed, there are actually three SHIRÔ family members working, so differing MEI could also be explained by that. 

[Alex A]

Dee, you misunderstood me.

 

I see why, maybe i should have been more clear.

 

What i meant was your comparison above demonstrates how a mei might change, for one reason or another.

 

So often here, over the years in past discussions, people ignore the sword and talk like all mei are machine stamped or something.

 

Im talking old discussions, not this one.

 

Hope that makes more sense.

[David Flynn]

I believe, Ono Yoshimitsu has had at least one forgery found.  I'm really testing my memory here, but I think maybe Paul Martin knows about it.

[Jacques]

I won't get into the debate because I'm not interested in shinsakuto, so I don't know much about it. As for mei, you should know that they are in no way comparable to a handwritten signature. The smith engraves his mei to the exact stroke of the hammer and with great precision, and the changes that can be seen over the course of a career owe nothing to chance. If you're wise, perhaps one day I'll be able to explain these variations to you.

[KungFooey]

19 hours ago, Alex A said:

Dee, you misunderstood me.

 

I see why, maybe i should have been more clear.

 

What i meant was your comparison above demonstrates how a mei might change, for one reason or another.

 

So often here, over the years in past discussions, people ignore the sword and talk like all mei are machine stamped or something.

 

Im talking old discussions, not this one.

 

Hope that makes more sense.

Hi Alex,

I apologize as yes, I may have taken it the wrong way. Now I completely understand your meaning and appreciate your input.

 

Dee

[Alex A]

We have books and stuff but you can also learn from modern smiths if you can get to talk with them or listen to people that know smiths and are more aware about what can go on at a modern forge and have interesting tales to tell.

 

Stuff like why some swords end up unsigned, as an example.

 

I was told in the past of a smith that passed away, all the unfinished swords that were in various stages of completion were later finished and signed by his son..

 

Be interesting to hear from others one day, though that would be another thread.

 

Point being, if happens now it happened back in the day.

 

Cheers Dee.