Re-issue of Juyo papers

[Jim P]

Hi all, I came across a page that had 2 Juyo listed swords, that had their papers lost ) Can someone tell me, if the papers are lost is the only way to get Juyo papers is To resubmit it ? this sword had passed (the 13th NBTHK Juyo Token) but the(Juyo paper has been lost, and so this blade has Juyo Shomeisho paper and copy of Zufu) only now I know that NBTHK will not OK old

papers so where is the middle ground ? as we all Know the papers add much to the price. It seems strange that we have X Juyo swords that the NBTHK now say no to ?thanks. Jim

[Eric H]

and so this blade has Juyo Shomeisho paper and copy of Zufu

The Shomeisho paper has been issued in Heisei 7 (1995), the paper indicates a nagasa: 2 shaku - 3 sun - 2 bu = 70.3 cm, on Aoi's site are indicated 70.89 cm. I do not know if the sword was submitted again to regular Shinsa, in any case a copy of the Zufu is not complicated to get, I suppose, for they are all recorded in the Juyo Token Nado Zufu register. Other members might be better informed.

Eric

[Jim P]

Hi Eric, Thanks I did not pick up on, the paper indicates a nagasa: 2 shaku - 3 sun - 2 bu = 70.3 cm, on Aoi's site are indicated 70.89 cm. but I think if it was possible (Zufu is not complicated to get, I suppose, for they are all recorded in the Juyo Token Nado Zufu register. ) Like a good friend informed me NBTHK is up the road from Aoi's they would have done it ? thanks jim :D

[Clive Sinclaire]

Hi Eric

I have had a similar case recently. It is my understanding that under no circumstances will NBTHK re-issue old papers of any kind. I guess the opportunities for fraud are too great. The close proximity of Aoi Art to NBTHK is irrelavent I am afraid.

Clive Sinclaire

[Jim P]

Hi all, So the question becomes do the old papers have worth? maybe one of the more knowledgeable members can help ? thanks Jim :D

[Mark]

my thinking is: the sword passed Juyo so it is Juyo. Maybe it would not pass now as standards change but the same would be true if the papers were not lost. With Hozon and TH if the papers are lost there is no proof they past shinsa but with Juyo the blade is recorded in the annual Zufu or book published that shows all Juyo from that year. These books are owned by a number of people. If i had a question i would find someone with that volume, look up the blade, then CAREFULLY compare the blade with the one in the book, check the nakago, boshi, hamon (the NBTHK shows these in the book) to verify that the sword is the one published, if so then i would not have a problem, the paper is nice to have or display but the sword is what you are buying and collecting (unless you collect papers)

[Jean]

In fact a lot of people, F. Weissberg, A. Quirt set store by the first juyos. They say that at that time papers were very difficult to get because selection was very, very drastic

[Eric H]

F. Weissberg, A. Quirt set store by the first juyos. They say that at that time papers were very difficult to get because selection was very, very drastic

To avoid any misunderstanding, the sword on Aoi's site is without doubt the sword from the 13th NBTHK Juyo Token session. Perhaps the "detail" gives a specific explanation...

Eric

[Jim P]

Hi mark, The problem is the sword will probably not pass now if the standards have changed is it still a juyo sword ? As its being listed as such thanks jim

[Eric H]

is it still a juyo sword ?

This will always be a JUYO TOKEN and heartily congratulations to the new owner...it's on HOLD :D

Eric

[Jean]

This one is not J. but taking into consideration all features : length, perfect hada, very good hamon, end of kamakura, it is a splendid candidate for J.

 

https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/auct ... 1213703271

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The copy of zufu is dated from Showa shiju nen (1965)

[Jim P]

Hi Eric, Mark,( my thinking is: the sword passed Juyo so it is Juyo) how can it be? the NBTHK will not stand by it. As is probable if it could they would do it. (the dealer) I am not just speaking about this sword you are seeing swords that are billed as juyo but are not seen as such by the NBTHK if they did they would back the paper they issued ? what do some of the members think do we need a new Shinsa standard the X Juyo :lol:I tried not to mention the dealer but

Someone picked it up and put it on the board it make it a lot harder to speak about a sword when its on hold no one like to s**t-can Someone’s else’s buy its interesting to see how people still see the old papers as valid but the NBTHK in many cases will probably not pass them now?

It’s probable that a lot of people have blades with old papers and don’t wont to think that their sword may not make it now so its a touchy subject thanks Jim

[Jean]

Jim, your post is neither complete nor conclusive.

 

A lot of seasonned collectors praised these old Juyo. NBTHK policy is NBTHK policy. You don't agree, it's your opinion but I don't think you are qualified to say if this sword shall pass or not another Juyo shinsa.

 

Last thing, there are Juyos at all prices so don't draw any conclusion about the price

[Ted Tenold]

Hi Eric, Mark,( my thinking is: the sword passed Juyo so it is Juyo) how can it be? the NBTHK will not stand by it. As is probable if it could they would do it. (the dealer) I am not just speaking about this sword you are seeing swords that are billed as juyo but are not seen as such by the NBTHK if they did they would back the paper they issued ? what do some of the members think do we need a new Shinsa standard the X Juyo :lol:I tried not to mention the dealer but

Someone picked it up and put it on the board it make it a lot harder to speak about a sword when its on hold no one like to xxxx-can Someone’s else’s buy its interesting to see how people still see the old papers as valid but the NBTHK in many cases will probably not pass them now?

It’s probable that a lot of people have blades with old papers and don’t wont to think that their sword may not make it now so its a touchy subject thanks Jim

 

Jim,

 

For the life of me, I cannot figure out what your issue is with this sword, it's rank, or the NBTHK. :?

 

Shomeisho are replacement papers for lost original Juyo papers. It's that simple. It is a Juyo, recorded as a Juyo in the Zufu for that particular year, and will always be recognized as a Juyo. The age of the papers, or their existence does not deminish it's rank or the judgement. Papers are frequently lost, and as Mark pointed out, lower tiers are not recorded in such a way as to be verifiable for replacement papers. There are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of them. Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon papers which are lost cannot be replaced. The piece must be resubmitted for judgement. Older papers such as Kicho, Tokubetsu Kicho, have been the subject of suspicion (the "whys" have been discussed before so I'll leave that to the search function) and the only way to find out if they are genuine is to submit the piece for upgraded papers (Hozon or Tokuho). If the piece is found to be gimei or with flaws precluding paper issue, it will be simply noted "No Upgrade". This scenario however is not an issue for Juto. They can be referenced. The difference in measurement is so minor it is likely just a small variance where the wrong mark was read on the measure.

 

Early Jutos (those from about the late 1960's and prior) are frequently praised for being at the upper end of quality. Most folks believe it's because the standards of judgement were more stringent, and that is true to a lesser degree. However, I believe another reason is the fact that most of the early Juyos were still in Japan and never left, or were found outside Japan early on as very obviously qualitative pieces. They more or less set the standard of measure. Swords as art had not quite caught on outside Japan in those early days, but when they did and the submissions increased, they were judged by those that came before them. Additionally, those that left Japan were subjected to any number of detriments to condition and thus to their health, the likes of which would be far less in Japan where they would have been more properly care for. It was not ununsual for Japanese to have difficulty examining swords here in the U.S., because they were not accustomed to looking through rust and damage. Over a span of three or four decades, the pool of greater works naturally saw a deminishiment, and the criteria for importance migrated to a subjectively lower tolerance. However that tolerance has seemed to find it's bottom in the past few years with less swords passing Juyo. It is only reasonable to conclude that the body of qualified extant pieces will begin to dry up over time.

 

As Jean said, there are Juyo swords in many price ranges. This year I've seen several sell for well under $20,000 US while others are well above $100,000 US. "Juyo Token" is not a price scale, it a rank of importance as an extant art sword. Market sets the price according to rarity, stylistic appeal, quality, and condition. This is no different than the Hozon swords I've seen reaching $40,000 or more. Doesn't mean they aren't Juyo quality, they just haven't been submitted to the process to get it. So...

 

Yes, the original paper is nice to have, and to a lesser degree it does impact the price of a piece, the severity of which depending on the piece itself. It's part of the provinance of the piece and forms an integral part of wanting a Juyo sword or kodogu. But if the certificate is the main focus, why even consider the sword in the first place?? The work is the important part, and if it's a cataloged Juto, then so be it.

[Jean]

Just to add some inputs : There is an International crisis which is reaching Nihonto market. People are more and more selective in there choice. You will find "very affordable" juyo on the market at less than 20k$ or 15k€ - these are juyos attributed to some schools (not to a swordsmith) or "Den" school, Naoe Shizu, Yamato... They are fine swords of arts but will never reach the price of Juyo great smiths - these ones keep their level price. Speaking of Aoi Art, there was not far ago a Juyo tanto signed Rai Kunitoshi at 66k$ - it was sold within a week . I know a juyo naginata Rai Kunimistsu which was on sale 3 years ago at 35k$ and which has reappeared last year at 21k$

 

Beware everyone, as stated by Ted:

 

Quality/rarity makes a Juyo but Juyo don't drive the price

 

Juyo once===> Juyo forever

[Jim P]

Hi Ted,Jean jean I was not making a judgment on this sword and you are 100% right I am not qualified to say if this sword shall pass or not another Juyo shinsa. I was trying to work out what do you do in if you are thinking of buying such a sword, and if the papers mean as much in a case like this. Its like going to the bank and finding the currency has been changed. So it can be confusing, Ted thank you for the excellent info. I was speaking only hypothetically for the 1 in a 100 that will no longer stand up as my knowledge is low I look to the papers a lot more than I should (like a lot of collectors) and find its a lot more complicated than it seems and trying to understand the contradiction. So it comes down to the knowledge to know what makes a Juyo with out papers influencing you as you cannot let the papers do it for you thank guys still such a long way to go Jim

[Eric H]

This year I've seen several sell for well under $20,000 US while others are well above $100,000 US. "Juyo Token" is not a price scale, it a rank of importance as an extant art sword.

The first Juyo Token shinsa was held in 1951, the shinsa is held once a year with submission in September. The level of Juyo is generally reserved for swords that are in excellent condition in consideration of age. Their quality would have been top quality at that time of manufacture and therefore the artwork represents master craftsmanship or is particularly indicative of the vogue of the age in which the sword was made. To cite DB: Juyo Token means important sword. And the keyword is important, not beautiful, not flawless, not good smith, it is IMPORTANT.

 

A team of experts will decide whether a sword gets the designation JUYO or not. My question: of how many people consists this panel...and are their names known in public?

 

Eric

[reikoto]

Some to think!

Did one of the members submit already once a mumei sword without the old papers for the second time to the NBTHK shinsa?

That doubt about the 100000 old NBTHK papers is a good business for the NBTHK!

Who applies the doubt?

Would one of you, if he had bought the den Yamato Shizu sword, submit it again to the NBTHK?

What happens with the old papers, if a sword is upgraded e.g. from Tokubetsu Kicho to Jujo?

Can it be that swords are re-forged after the old papers?

来古刀, Ronny.

[Jean]

Eric,

 

For one, Tanobe san probably

[drbvac]

Makes sense to me - thanks Ted, recording and registration trumps papers in hand !!

[Jim P]

Hi all, I just wanted to have this clear in my mind, so I apologize for going over it again. If I buy a sword that has the papers lost and

if I resubmit it and it does Not pass it still stays a Juyo. Jim

[Ted Tenold]

Jim,

 

Well, it doesn't work like that. If you knew it was Juyo already, you wouldn't reasonably resubmit it to Juyo shinsa. You request replacement papers for the sword which will then be verified against the Juyo recording in the Zufu.

 

I know of one sword that passed Juyo and then was later submitted again to Juyo shinsa as if it had no papers already. The hope was for a better attribution . The NBTHK came back with the answer "This sword is already Juyo", and that was the end of it.

 

What I will say is that the attributions on mumei swords can change slightly if a Juyo piece is then submitted to Tokubetsu Juyo shinsa. For example in the case of Sadamune or Go Yoshihiro where there are no extant *signed* examples, the attribution will change to "Den" (in the tradition of) Sadamune or "Den" Go Yoshihiro because it is the policy of the NBTHK to define den in the Tokuju rank in the lack of signed comparative works.

 

For a good article about the "Den" designation read Bob Bensons article here:

 

http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/Den%20article.pdf