A new acquisition

[reinhard]

Dear Reinhard,

 

I have no need for anyone to prostrate themselves before me at all...merely to back up their opinions with some evidence or rationale.

 

Dear Ford,

All backing up so far, even yours, consisted of posting all sorts of Japanese horse images. A random potpourri of horse pics from a thousand years of Japan's history of art and decoration it was. I don't call this evidence or rationale. We should be talking about tsuba design within a frame of style and time instead.

 

I have gone to a great deal of trouble to offer a considered rationale, with pictures, to make my case. You, on the otherhand, simply continue to gainsay everything I propose but without offering any counter argument for anyone to evaluate.

 

Sorry Ford, but what you are offering for "considered rationale" doesn't work. You can't just pick any image from Japan's history of art and turn it into evidence for tsuba design. And this is what it is all about: tsuba. When talking about considered rationale, I'd expect to see examples of comparable tsuba by HISANORI, the school of Omori TERUHIDE, Mito Kinko, whatever. I can't present them myself, but nobody else, including you, could so far. Up to now it's just a matter of opinions and the whole thing is dangerously close to drifting into the arena of "Japanese aesthetics" one more time. You may forgive my unwillingness to discuss this particular topic one more time right now, right here and on the basis of this particular example. We've had this discussion before with better examples at hand.

 

best regards

 

reinhard

[george trotter]

(First) Dear Ford,

All backing up so far, even yours, consisted of posting all sorts of Japanese horse images. A random potpourri of horse pics from a thousand years of Japan's history of art and decoration it was. I don't call this evidence or rationale. We should be talking about tsuba design within a frame of style and time instead.

 

 

(Second) Sorry Ford, but what you are offering for "considered rationale" doesn't work. You can't just pick any image from Japan's history of art and turn it into evidence for tsuba design. And this is what it is all about: tsuba. When talking about considered rationale, I'd expect to see examples of comparable tsuba by HISANORI, the school of Omori TERUHIDE, Mito Kinko, whatever. best regards

 

reinhard

 

(Answer to first) Hi Reinhard,

my memory is that after other posters discussed this tsuba within what they think is its meaning, skill level, and time period, you said this pompous and pretentious work was obviously Meiji period hamamono of western influence made expressly for the western market. Ford and others posted pics to support their contention...showing that this style of depiction has been around in Japan for many centuries....isn't it time for you to now show us where we have gone wrong...please post your rationale, with all the pics that show this design of horse is western influence (how?) in its frame of style (pompous and pretentious export ware) and time (Meiji).

 

 

(Answer to second) Actually, no. Reinhard, the discussion was never about "tsuba", but about this particular tsuba decoration. The discussion was never about this work actually being BY Hisanori of Omori Teruhide school, Mito Kninko or whatever...only possible names were given...it has always been about your direct and definite statement that this was Meiji period hamamono export ware made with wester influence to appeal to western markets...please substantiate your claim.

Please do not continue with this inversion of the "onus of proof". It is not the role of the "attacked" to prove the attacker wrong, it is the "attacker" who must prove himself right (see Logic 101).

George.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

Just a quick note here on the Western influences in Japanese art.

 

It predates Meiji going back to late Azuchi Momoyama in Nagasaki, evolving into Nanga school.

 

Slightly later in early Edo, the Maruyama Shijo school became popular, it was an amalgamation of Chinese & Western influences mixed with Japanese.

 

Egg Chicken etc....

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[george trotter]

Hi Malcolm,

yes, I too have read this, and many Japanese graphic art books mention it and the schools also. The Dutch introduced the first inklings of western perspective to Japanese art as well as western architecture, medicine, science, optics etc etc. There was certainly a strong desire to learn from outside even during the isolation period. In fact, the western influence on graphic art in the depiction of horses seems to be that between say 1853 and 1913 the depiction of horses becomes conventionally "western" (ie standing straight, in proportion, no twisted necks and no "all four feet off the ground" nonsense). This can be seen in ukiyoe of this time. So as Reinhard says...there is a strong western influence in the Japanese horse at this time...but that is the point here...the horse depicted on this tsuba is straight out of the pre-western era...it in fact contradicts the influences becoming apparent in Meiji period. I'm looking forward to seeing Reinhards's "proof" that this horse is western influenced Meiji hamamono designed specifically for the western market.

Regards,

George.

[Henry Wilson]

It is a beautiful Saturday afternoon here in Tokyo and the cherry blossoms are just trying to bloom. While researching I found this image which offers proof of nothing other than what you want it to prove. Being an objective observer, can we not just agree to disagree?

 

[george trotter]

Hi Henry, a lovely (hot) Saturday here too (same timezone).

As you say...your pic represents whatever people want it to represent...same as in the case of the horse, people were speculating on various aspects of what it "might" be (era, maker, legend etc), when one loud voice said it's NONE of those it's THIS! Since then the "might" people have tried to show evidence to support the "might", but the THIS guy, while jeering at them, has continued to say it's THIS, but declined to provide evidence that the THIS is THIS.

As much as it would be desireable to agree to disagree, the THIS guy insists that all must accept his position as WHAT IS...without him having to support it with evidence. Sooo...we have impass...One cannot reason with the unreasonable (old jungle saying).

 

Regards,

George.

Hope all is well in Kanto.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning again all,

 

Thanks for the continued points and counterpoints on this thread.

 

As a result I've started re-reading through Epochs of Chinese & Japanese Art - Vol 1 & 2

by Ernest Fenollosa.

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Brian]

I'm with Henry on this one. Can we agree to disagree and move on? I don't even mind if we keep posting images of art and try and show various influences..just as long as we now agree that this is a matter of personal opinion until a shinsa says otherwise.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

...and a shinsa panel is yet another set of opinions :D and in that case there is no requirement to present any compelling rationale or evidence for those opinions. Very unsatisfactory situation in my opinion....of course that's also just an opinion.

 

For myself I prefer not to defer to unquestioned authority but prefer to hear reasoned and convincing explanations.

 

It's been fun, none the less.

 

regards all,

 

Ford

[nagamaki - Franco]

...and a shinsa panel is yet another set of opinions

 

Indeed, which is why the result should not be treated as an end all, but rather as a new beginning. That is, that not until one fully understands how the shinsa team reached their conclusions, whether you agree with their findings or not, your homework remains unfinished.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Franco,

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head when you write;

how the shinsa team reached their conclusions

 

The present situation with shinsa panels is they rarely, if ever, provide their rationale. One can reasonably ask then, how much better informed one is once we have a label.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not denigrating the knowledge of any shinsa panel but I do think there's room for a more educational role in the appraisal of pieces by experts.

[Brian]

Don't get me wrong..I'm not suggesting the end of the topic. Merely stating that we won't find a final answer here, and therefore we shouldn't expect a difinitive answer in this thread. It is more about each of us reaching conclusions based on decent amount of evidence provided here. There is no point arguing about the conclusion...better for us all to learn from the evidence presented (or lack of) and learn to identify these things ourselves. Or at least leave the thread with a better understanding of the subject matter than we entered with.

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

The problem with any form of art is that to find any form of influence in it is difficult.

Generalisations are impossible to make in true art forms. You cannot look into the makers head.

With this tsuba it is the same. We do not know if the maker has seen western images of horses, and we especially

cannot attest his mood or ideas when he was making the object.

 

It is true that some art critics will state that certain artists might have been inspired by other art forms, but it is also well known that for instance Jackson Pollock laughed and ridiculed art critics for even presuming to know what was going on in his own head at the time he made a painting. Therefore a lot of it will be wishful thinking.

 

With this tsuba, you cannot say it is Meiji, nor can you say it is older because you do not know its original provenance.

You might get some clues from the signature, carving technique, metallurgy even, but there is no proof whatsoever on what the artistic influence might have been. Opinions do matter though, since they can bring forth a consensus, whether or not that consensus might be on the mark or the truth remains another thing. In this debate, we can only say with confidence that the horse looks more Japanese than any western depiction of any horse.

We can add proof by images, showing a general view on the depiction of horses in Japanese art, and compare those to western depictions. We could also say that a depiction looks a little more or less werstern. That still holds no proof to the possibility of the artist himself having seen western imagery of horses, let alone be influenced by them.

 

There are swords with gimei and swords with mei, but there must also be swords with badly carved mei, mei which were by the same smith on an off day when he was feeling ill, or mei carved by really proficient fakers with a close understanding of the original signature of the smith they want to copy. When encountering those, a shinsa team will of course look into the deeper quality of the forging work, and give their educated OPINION on the provenance of a blade.

 

Therefore there is no absolute proof. In this case however there is no proof either that the maker was actually inspired by western depiction of horses, and the horse is looking more Japanese styled than western. That can lead to the conclusion that this tsuba is either older, or is not influenced by western art forms.

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The problem starts when one thinks he is right and does not substantiate why. That goes for everyone in the discussion, without exceptions.

 

KM

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Just a little comment about this thread, man should not reverse the burden of proof; one (Reinhardt in this case) that says something has to establish that he is right.

[sanjuro]

Lets be honest.... This is no court of law, there is no requirement for proof and therefore no burden of proof. We are dealing with personal opinion for heaven's sake. If one cares to offer examples to support that opinion, then thats fine. But equally we are all entitled to an opinion without having to justify it or feel obligated to respond to a legal precedent such as the burden of proof. The value of an opinion here lies in and is proportional to the quarter from which it comes. Both opinions though discordant with each other come from people we respect as knowledgable. It is now up to the individual to examine those opinions and draw from them what he can. Would you submit a sword to shinsa and then pompously challenge the teams' opinion of that blade on the grounds that they had not met your requirements for the 'burden of proof' concerning their judgement? I somehow doubt it.

Let it lie people..... its over. Are we going to continue this post mortem ad infinitum or are there better things to be doing and other subjects to explore?

 

Edit: Pete removed.... Heaven inserted.

[Pete Klein]

Please, leave me out of this...

[sanjuro]

Pete

Errrr......Different Pete........ Its not always about you Figure of speech and all that. However a suitable edit has been made to avoid your possible accidental involvement, and instead to invoke the involvement of a more supreme being

[Ford Hallam]

...instead to invoke the involvement of a more supreme being

 

oh no!, ...I thought I could extricate myself at this point.

[Jean]

I thought I could extricate myself at this point.

 

Sorry Ford, not as long as you are my deputy

[sanjuro]

Not quite what I had in mind when I referred to a supreme being. But hey...... Its a crazy messed up world and I'll take what I can get. :lol:

[george trotter]

Nice to read those very reasonable comments from members....be nice to get back to interesting tosogu discussion. I'm all for that.

George.

[reinhard]

Reinhard, isn't it time for you to now show us where we have gone wrong...

 

Check this thread. You were "participating".

 

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6890&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

reinhard

[reinhard]

Actually, no. Reinhard, the discussion was never about "tsuba", but about this particular tsuba decoration.

 

You seem to be determined to make a fool out of yourself.

 

reinhard

[sanjuro]

Why am I put in mind of the film 'Groundhog Day'? Where the cast are obliged to relive the same day over and over again..................

[John A Stuart]

Again this subject has become a personalality clash and quite frankly hamamonotonous. If you wish to challenge someone on their opinion, once is enough. Desoler. John