A new acquisition

[Ford Hallam]

George,

 

my concern with what I see as a misinterpretation in terms of artistic influence is that the vast majority of people involved in the sword collecting world actually only have a relatively superficial grasp of the complexity of Japanese art as a whole. What this can lead to is a rejection of anything unfamiliar as being not Japanese style or taste and therefore obviously Western influence.

 

This gross oversimplification of artistic development and it's expression reduces Japanese art to it's most obvious clichés and simply reinforces stereotypical notions of what Japanese art is...or should be

 

It may well be that we might paraphrase a well used expression here, "I don't know a lot about Japanese art but I know what I think it should look like"

 

If all opinions on the matter are equally valid on the matter then I suppose there really is no more point talking about it. I had assumed that an eduction in the subject might have been at least a little bit useful.

 

さよなら,

 

Ford

[george trotter]

Hi Ford,

I agree exactly. That is why I quoted your very logical and reasonable request to Reinhard to show material evidence of his assertions. For the sake of this discussion and what we can learn from it I hope he does, otherwise, as you have made clear, this is just a clash of opinions and not an educational discussion.

Regards,

George.

[Muki]

I've lived (and continue to live) in Japan for years and still am not sure what Japanese art is or should be...

[Ford Hallam]

Dear Muki

 

apart from the qualification of living in Japan could you perhaps mention some of the books you've studied in your attempts to gain an understanding of the subject? I could suggest 2 or 3 off hand that would probably suffice to provide a pretty comprehensive overview...if it would help.

[Muki]

Ford, I only typed that in a "tongue in cheek" manner! Any given day driving down the street in Japan is a mind expanding event from an artistic point of view much like anywhere in Asia. From the garish Pachinko parlors to the loveable street construction signs it is always an adventure.

 

Following this thread has been a fantastic insight into how you and the other learned artisans and collectors approach and categorize the various relics and pieces that have been posted about here. What I take from all I have read is how much I do not know about nihonto and tosogu. Still, I follow what you and others write with great interest. Please, keep posting photos and writing!

 

jim

[Henry Wilson]

I could suggest 2 or 3 off hand

 

Hi Ford

I'd love to know

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Jim,

 

sorry, I did wonder if there wasn't a slightly ironic tone to your post

 

I wanted to make hat point anyway so thanks for the opening :D

 

Henry,

 

you may find the following of interest;

 

For a pretty comprehensive journey from the earliest periods right up to the 1970's "Japanese Art" by Joan Stanley-Baker is hard to beat for just over 200 pages.

 

For some more practical guidance in terms of appraising Japanese Art "How to look at Japanese Art" by Stephen Addiss may be very helpful. It looks at the major types of work and discusses the various criteria by which to judge work.

 

"A Tractate on Japanese Aesthetics" by Donald Richie is superb. It's a tiny book, 70 pages, but he very eloquently describes and expounds on the more familiar aspects of Japanese aesthetics.

 

"The Unknown Craftsman" by Soetsu Yanagi is something of a personal manifesto of the author but does offer some very valuable insights into Japanese aesthetics and cultural values.

 

Junichiro Tanizaki's "In praise of Shadows" is also a very idiosyncratic but never the less very thought-provoking. Brad and I are working with this little text at the moment. We're filming in twilight and hopefully with rain and thunder later this evening...

[george trotter]

Very interesting thread indeed. I have enjoyed a number of art books over the decades, but all of mine have been stored away for some years now, but are mostly treatises such as legend expressed in Japanese art, folk myths expressed in art and treatises on ukiyoe and the Japanese perspective in art etc. Speaking of the Japanese perspective in art is the "twisted" nature of the horse in question. Seeing "both ends at once" is a feature of Japanese art and did not start to become "proper" until the west explained what perspective is (this "both ends view" is most obvious in shunga). I have seen 17-18th century Dutch prints that have picked up the Japanese concept for the sky being a blue (or indigo or pale violet) band across the top of the page, so there may well be other instances where the concepts such as the "twisted horse" actually came to European art from Japan, and he who thinks it is a western concept may actually be "twisted" in that this "twisted horse" on the tsuba is not western perspective that has come to Japan but actually Japanese perspective that actually belongs there.

I illustrate this "mis-conception" of the origin of art here...coming out of a 1970s movie theatre on campus which had just screened Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai", I heard a "learned" university undergraduate espousing the belief that Kurosawa had ripped off the Hollywood movie the "Magnificent Seven"!!!!

Just trying to help,

Geo.

[kusunokimasahige]

Ah, Joan Stanley-Baker, her book was the first exam i took at University when studying Japanese, indeed hard to beat as Ford said. I will try to find the other books/articles on the list too.

 

Another interesting general read on Japanese art is "The Dawns of Tradition" by the Nissan Motor company, 1983.

Not specialised but a very nice book nontheless. It was the book my dad gave me when i became 13 after his trip to Japan which eventually led to the fusion between Mitsubishi and Nedcar.

 

KM

[reinhard]

my concern with what I see as a misinterpretation in terms of artistic influence is that the vast majority of people involved in the sword collecting world actually only have a relatively superficial grasp of the complexity of Japanese art as a whole.

 

Still struggling for "Deutungshoheit" (supremacy of interpretation), Ford?

 

Let it be.

 

reinhard

[george trotter]

Hi Reinhard,

I think the topic is still whether the horse carving is western influence Meiji period hamamomo aimed specifically at the western market as you say, or whether it is Japanese art, pure and simple as others say.... not about something called "Deutunghoheit".

The unanswered question that I see here is not whether Ford suffers from "Deutungshoheit" but whether you will provide the evidence for your statement, as Ford politely asked you to do.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards,

George.

[Tom Darling]

The mei also appears to be quite plain and not the same modern features of lines/strokes that horse has? I would think it would be more in line with the subject. Tom

[george trotter]

Hi Tom,

could you expand your comments a bit? I'm not sure I understand your meaning.

Regards,

George.

[Ford Hallam]

Reinhard,

 

you seem to have a very odd idea about how reasonable people conduct a debate or discussion. :?

 

You've made some pretty absolute statements and yet steadfastly refuse to provide any form of critical reasoning or pictorial evidence to substantiate your comments. We're supposed to simply take your word as gospel without further analysis. Based, apparently, solely on your superior grasp of the subject.

 

Now you have the arrogance to accuse me of struggling to achieve Deutungshoheit. I find your attitude bizarre . not to say rude.

 

As for you condescendingly suggesting I "Let it be" I can only reply with another Beatles quote, one which I'm certain will suit you; "Nothing's going to change my world"

[sanjuro]

I may not be contributing to this thread but like many others I am paying attention to it.... . Can we return to topic please and perhaps ignore those unexplained unsubstantiated and unsupported claims at least until such time as they gain some relevance in being illuminated or otherwise substantiated?

[kusunokimasahige]

Ford, i agree with you about the horse, it is definetely in line with other Japanese examples you find on Kakejiku :

 

 

 

 

 

*rest deleted by admin* > Thank you Brian you are totally right. sorry.

 

KM

[Brian]

KM..stop being part of the problem.

I will leave it to Ford and Reinhard to hash this out, I don't need further input with regards to insults.

Pity such educational discussions always go this way. Especially since both participants actually have advanced knowledge of the subject. Also pity that this cannot have a solution unless someone submits it to shinsa.

Tone it down now folks..or consider a good discussion closed.

 

Brian

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

I was wondering, is Tim still with us? has he found someone with a good camera yet?

I for one, was wonderfully inspired by this tsuba.

My belief is that the set was very likely custom made for someone.

I have no proof of this obviously. But I feel that the quality, and the story, show it.

Mark G

[Muki]

In the risk of getting in trouble Brian, KM is the FIRST poster to actually bring pictorial evidence to the thread. Reinhard, advanced or not, didnt do so and left the rest of us beginners in the lurch and waiting for knowledge. Thanks KM, it is appreciated.

 

jim

[reinhard]

Reinhard,

you seem to have a very odd idea about how reasonable people conduct a debate or discussion.

 

Define "how reasonable people conduct a debate or discussion" according to your terms, if you please. Does this include bowing heads in front of grand master Ford?

 

You've made some pretty absolute statements and yet steadfastly refuse to provide any form of critical reasoning or pictorial evidence to substantiate your comments. We're supposed to simply take your word as gospel without further analysis. Based, apparently, solely on your superior grasp of the subject.

 

So did you. As far as I can see you have no better proof for your theories than me. It's just a matter of opinions, nothing more. Your gospel versus mine.

 

Prove me wrong, if you can, but stop complaining.

 

reinhard

[sensei215]

Gentlemen

Yes as the question was asked I'm still here and just found the recent posts. To say that I am delighted with the scholarly discussion would be an understatement. I acquired the tsuba in a trade several years ago at a gun show. I have always liked the the craftsmanship and I apologize for my lack of ability with a camera. I will try to find someone with a bit more talent with a camera. I find that trying to get proper lighting is difficult. I have quite a few other pieces I would like to share if I can get them photographed. Thank you all as usual. After collecting for almost 40 years I still find it humbling how little I know.

 

Tim S

[george trotter]

Gentlemen

To say that I am delighted with the scholarly discussion would be an understatement.

 

Thank you all as usual. After collecting for almost 40 years I still find it humbling how little I know.

 

Tim S

 

Hi Tim,

nice to hear from you. Love your horse tsubas, wish they were mine. The discussion has been great, even the amusing last minute detour into the land of inverted logic (or as they call it on Seinfeld..."bizarro land"). Most of us think your work is a charming Japanese artistic expression that has artistic merit.....and think it deserves further research. Look forward to clear pics.

Regards,

George.

[sensei215]

Hi George,

Well at least it keeps life interesting. The tempest in a tea pot. I think the answer may be shinsa but Japan or here. I enjoy your observations and posts.

 

Tim S

[Lorenzo]

/OT mode ON:

 

I apologize for my lack of ability with a camera. I will try to find someone with a bit more talent with a camera.

 

Tim, if you have no lucky with any camera a very fast way to obtain a believable picture of a tsuba is by means of a scanner.

If you have a copy shop somewhere close by, new copying machines usually can scan in colour and produce a file, pdf, jpg or whatever.

If you do so, you should also ask to put your object on the copier glass by yourself and do it carefully to avoid damages to both your tsuba and the copier glass.

 

/OT mode OFF

 

Regards,

Lorenzo

[Ford Hallam]

In the risk of getting in trouble Brian, KM is the FIRST poster to actually bring pictorial evidence to the thread. Reinhard, advanced or not, didnt do so and left the rest of us beginners in the lurch and waiting for knowledge. Thanks KM, it is appreciated.

 

jim

 

Hi Jim,

 

if you go back to the beginning of this topic and work though the posts you'll find quite a few images have been posted, some of which may help clarify various points that have been brought up.

 

Dear Reinhard,

 

I have no need for anyone to prostrate themselves before me at all...merely to back up their opinions with some evidence or rationale. You may find the following film clip helpful in grasping the essence of a good argument.

 

Unsubstantiated opinions are really of no use to anyone in terms of learning as there is no way to evaluate the reasonableness, or otherwise, of those opinions. I may well be wrong in my stated opinion but I have gone to a great deal of trouble to offer a considered rationale, with pictures, to make my case. Anyone can now evaluate what I have presented.

 

You, on the otherhand, simply continue to gainsay everything I propose but without offering any counter argument for anyone to evaluate. This, unfortunately simply makes you look arrogant and ignorant. Neither of which I believe you really are

 

regards,

 

Ford

[george trotter]

.jpg]

 

I just found another horse picture which may assist the "influence" discussion of the tsuba horse. This one was done by Masanobu in 1710. ... it is only a tiny horse from the corner of a print - actually "a wild spirit pony that has been let out of a bottle (gourd)". I don't know about some, but this suggests to me that the horse configuration as expressed on the tsuba is quite old, certainly it predates Meiji...but I am open to contradiction.

Although I feel the tsuba is also pre-Meiji, I can't prove it, but again I am open to the critics proving it is not.

Some consider this tsuba horse Meiji western influenced export art, and have suggested it is almost Remington-esque,...I ask, is it not possible that Remington, an assiduous graphic artist, was influenced by the Japanese depiction of the horse?

Regards,

George

[sanjuro]

If I may venture a very amateur interpretation of this tsuba's theme.

 

The horse was a prized possession of the samurai, and this little horse is obviously running away. The reverse depicts his hoof prints - the sad reminder of the passing of something beloved and valuable. It may be a comment on the passing of the ways and days of the horse and bow. All of which might place it post the passage of those days - Possibly Edo or Meiji.

 

I could of course be entirely up a gum tree on this (Living in Australia, we have quite a few gum trees hanging around).

[Ford Hallam]

I believe the theme was identified with a reference to a poem. Both Ian B. and the description in the 1966 made the same connection.

[sanjuro]

C'mon Ford....

Allow me my little Japanese moment. Hell, Ian's attribution was 7 pages back and although it probably is correct, is it not also valid to see other connections or subtle meanings in this theme? Art is in the interpretation and the personal meaning to the viewer after all. :D

[kusunokimasahige]