Recently purchased tsuba

[Franco D]

[Matsunoki]

A lighthearted question…..you can only buy one of these tsuba…..which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…?

[Coldramen]

I'd say the one on the right looks the to be the best quality, but that might be my "more gold= more expensive" brain talking.

[John C]

Hmmm. Might be a trick question. They look similar to me, however the one on the left seems a bit cleaner and more balanced to me.

 

John C.

[Dan tsuba]

O.K.,

I will bite!

I would have to see more pictures with different views of the tsuba.

But I would say the middle tsuba, it appears to have motif on the mimi and the motif appears to be more well executed.

Do I win a cookie?

[Shugyosha]

I’m on my phone and can’t magnify the pictures but I’ll guess the left hand one for the same reason as JohnC but also because the seppa dai is patinated and it doesn’t have the tagane  ato similar to the Nagoyamono examples earlier on the thread. 

[Scogg]

I’d choose left, personally 

[Matsunoki]

No, it’s not a trick question! Simply an illustration of how we can look but not actually see unless we know what we are looking at. Someone has paid a lot of money for 2 Mr Suzuki, albeit very flashy ones.

The left hand one is head and shoulders above the other two but it is not immedi obvious is it? 
 

https://www.bonhams....ions/14043/lot/6099/

 

51 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

would have to see more pictures with different views of the tsuba.

Not necessary if you know what to look for. 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

5 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

No, it’s not a trick question! Simply an illustration of how we can look but not actually see unless we know what we are looking at. Someone has paid a lot of money for 2 Mr Suzuki, albeit very flashy ones.

The left hand one is head and shoulders above the other two but it is not immedi obvious is it? 
 

https://www.bonhams....ions/14043/lot/6099/

 

Not necessary if you know what to look for. 

Im back from the dead to applaud you Colin. Look for the Tagane Ato near the Hitsu Ana.  Always the same pattern. Nanako size, Suzuki is always larger than good quality ones. Cheap pained on gold guilding for Suzuki.  Often the seppa dai coloration is not the same color as the Shakudo nanako.

Cheers

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Colin,

A fun exercise and a good learning experience.

Maybe some more stuff like this would help those of us who still have much to learn!

Posting pictures of tsuba, having members make a choice and then you explaining the correct choice that should be made.

[Matsunoki]

Please do not regard me as a tsuba expert. My knowledge lies mostly in Japanese Metalwork (and other arts) and I’m hopeless on things like tsuba schools, signatures etc. My approach has always been to understand and recognise quality irrespective of who made it. If you can recognise quality (more relevant to kinko work) then you’ve cracked it. 
Vital learning point (imo) ….quality can never lie. 

[Shugyosha]

Great exercise Colin, thank you! 

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…?

 

None of the above.

[Matsunoki]

33 minutes ago, Franco D said:

None of the above.

Why?

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Why?

 

2 hours ago, Franco D said:

None of the above.

 

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…?

 

Quality is the criteria for making all my choices.

 

How do you determine and gauge quality?

 

You begin by looking at the best, not by some measure in our own minds. 

 

A better question might be how would you grade these three tsuba? 

Ah, but first you have to have a scale.

Grade and quality in comparison to what?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scogg]

30 minutes ago, Franco D said:

 

Grade and quality in comparison to what?

 

It was my understanding that the exercise was to compare quality amongst the three available options. Although I can see how the wording didn’t make that explicitly clear. 
 

I’d love to see your interpretation on the exercise. To share three tsuba of varying quality, and see if us beginner collectors can pick out the best one. Maybe we could learn something!  
 

Sincerely,

-Sam 

[Dan tsuba]

A little off topic here.

But just because a copper type tsuba has a series of tagane-ato punch marks in a specific type of pattern (or close to that pattern) it does not mean it is (what has been called on this thread) a Mr. Suzuki tsuba.

I refer you to the below listed thread on one of my first tsuba purchases about 6 years ago.

I remember paying about 70 dollars for this tsuba.  If it had all its patina and gold coloring on the leaves, it would be worth several thousand dollars.  But the craftsmanship of the nanako and the motif remains the same, even if it had been overcleaned when I purchased it.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28108-brass-tsuba/#comment-283873

 

[Jesta]

7 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

I’d choose left, personally 

I think that I lost the auction on that one… Looks very similar to one I bid on once… 

edit: Looking at the Bonhams link, it wasn’t the one I bid on. That was a single lot, but looked very similar.

[Jesta]

7 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

A lighthearted question…..you can only buy one of these tsuba…..which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…?

 

Definitely the lefthand one. (see above, but I bid on a very similar one as a single lot, and lost).

The problem with comparing from pictures is that you really have to go on the quality of the picture to start with. Many sins can be hidden with some creative lighting… I also don’t like bidding on mixed lots because you tend to get some crud with some not-quite-cream… 

 

(Edit)

Criteria:

Artistic merit - the way that the dragon moves through the tsuba is very appealing.

Skill: I really appreciate good quality nanako, but I am sometimes swayed by overall design or “feel” (which is why I liked the tanto tsuba posted above)

Fit: It needs to work with my current collection as much as possible

[Franco D]

4 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

I’d love to see your interpretation on the exercise.

 

 

To my eye none of the three tsuba presented present quality above average, not materially, not artistically. So, what you're left with is which of the three is #1, #2, and #3? There's really not much of a lesson to learn here. Study the best, then collect what you like.

 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

9 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

If it had all its patina and gold coloring on the leaves, it would be worth several thousand dollars.

Dan…..use your eyes. Whoever told you that😳?  Sorry, but it’s a Nagoya Mono ie Mr Suzuki. It is a poorly cast and somewhat abused example. It was probably sold with no gold wash…just plain black (many were)If you cannot see that after this thread ……..

Edited February 9 by Matsunoki
Typo

[Matsunoki]

10 hours ago, Franco D said:

Quality is the criteria for making all my choices.

Good for you. Shame your knowledge couldn’t pick out the better quality one from the two Nagoya Mono. Everyone else got the drift of my light hearted teaser but you choose to complicate it. 

 

4 hours ago, Franco D said:

To my eye none of the three tsuba presented present quality above average, not materially, not artistically.

That was not what I said nor what I asked. 

 

4 hours ago, Franco D said:

So, what you're left with is which of the three is #1, #2, and #3?

Again that is not what I asked. I did not ask to rank them, just pick the best one and it’s pretty obvious when you know what to look for.

10 hours ago, Franco D said:

 

How do you determine and gauge quality?

By having a thorough understanding of the different methods of construction, the alloys used and by handling all qualities from Natsuo to Nagoya mono…..everything in between. The difference between overlay and inlay and the different methods of inlay. The different methods of texture and patina creation. The difference between cast vs cast and hand finished vs fully hand carved from scratch etc etc etc 

 

10 hours ago, Franco D said:

Ah, but first you have to have a scale.

Please be serious. 

 

In my opinion you have just decided to be bloody minded and try to spoil a simple attempt to illustrate the difference between Nagoya Mono and the real deal. I posed the question because many are getting caught out by not being able to differentiate. 

 

PLEASE go and argue with someone else or start your own thread. I await that with interest. 
 

[Matsunoki]

13 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

Im back from the dead to applaud you Colin.

Many thanks. Sounds like you might have had a rough time……Hope things have improved and welcome back. 

[Franco D]

7 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Good for you. Shame your knowledge couldn’t pick out the better quality one from the two Nagoya Mono. Everyone else got the drift of my light hearted teaser but you choose to complicate it. 

 

12 hours ago, Franco D said:

So, what you're left with is which of the three is #1, #2, and #3?

 

Collin, what's not to get!  It was an exercise in mediocrity. Nothing to learn besides what not to collect! 

 

In this whole thread it hasn't been established what A+ shakudo, or A+ nanako, or an A+ shakudo-nanako tsuba really looks like. 

So what is it that you're studying? What's the lesson here? Start at the bottom and work your way up?

 

As you were.

[John C]

Franco:

I, for one, appreciate the exercise. Knowledge is useless if it can't be put into practice - that's why schools and universities give tests. I also tend to live in mediocrity financially, so this level of difference is right up my ally and will hopefully assist me in not wasting too much money on pure junk.

 

John C. 

[Matsunoki]

32 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Nothing to learn besides what not to collect! 

Are you so blind that you cannot see that that alone is a valuable lesson? If it helps anyone to avoid buying poor quality that has to be a good thing…..Yes or No will do. 
 

35 minutes ago, Franco D said:

In this whole thread it hasn't been established what A+ shakudo, or A+ nanako, or an A+ shakudo-nanako tsuba really looks like. 

Again you entirely miss the point. It was never the intention to illustrate the finest pieces…..it was exactly the opposite….to illustrate the poorer pieces thus  trying to give a few warnings/pointers to watch out for.

I suggest you actually carefully re read the thread, and then go argue with someone else because you’re in a hole and still digging. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Franco D]

Yeah, keep studying s**t without ever learning what you should be studying! 

[Matsunoki]

OK Franco…..tell me which of these artists you have actually owned and/or

paid huge money to get restored by the best restorers in the world…..

Kano Natsuo

Unno Shomin

Ozeki

Yamada Motonobu

Hasegawa Issei

Iwamoto Konkan

Kajima Ikkoku

Suzuki Chokichi 

Kanazawa Doki Kaisha

Sano Takachika

…..and many more

…..I’m talking Khalili quality metalwork, the very finest ever made. 

 

55 minutes ago, Franco D said:

So what is it that you're studying? What's the lesson here? Start at the bottom and work your way up?

No, avoid the bottom and work your way up. Is that so difficult to understand.
 

Now just go away and annoy someone else. You are making yourself look deliberately obtuse. 
 

 

 

 

[Franco D]

2 hours ago, John C said:

I , for one, appreciate the exercise. Knowledge is useless if it can't be put into practice - that's why schools and universities give tests. I also tend to live in mediocrity financially, so this level of difference is right up my ally and will hopefully assist me in not wasting too much money on pure junk.

 

And that's fine. The point I'm trying and apparently failing to make, is that by studying the best, learning to recognize what excellence in Nihonto and Japanese sword furniture really is, really means, really looks like, then junk "hurts your eyes as the Japanese say!" 

What does Colin's lineup look like if 3 more even better pieces were added in? Then Colin's best tsuba suddenly doesn't look that great anymore. Why? Answer that question then the entire picture is complete.  

 

People have to live within their means. But that doesn't mean they should not peel away the blinders. Take off the blinders.

Buy what you like, but fully understand what you're buying!  

At Japanese sword shows, excellent pieces, even A+ pieces, both swords and in fittings, have been purchased for what amounts to the price of perhaps a few mediocre pieces. Why? Because somebody did their homework! Somebody noticed something that others didn't.

 

Regards,

 

[Matsunoki]

You just keep on digging Franco. Now you introduce an  air of condescension into the thread. 
Again I suggest you re-read the thread.……and you will see they are not “my tsuba” but a very apt and suitable Lot from Bonhams that perfectly illustrated the actual subject under discussion……which most who took part in found useful.