Matsunoki Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 A lighthearted question…..you can only buy one of these tsuba…..which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…? 4 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 8 Author Report Posted February 8 I'd say the one on the right looks the to be the best quality, but that might be my "more gold= more expensive" brain talking. Quote
John C Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 Hmmm. Might be a trick question. They look similar to me, however the one on the left seems a bit cleaner and more balanced to me. John C. 2 Quote
Dan tsuba Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 O.K., I will bite! I would have to see more pictures with different views of the tsuba. But I would say the middle tsuba, it appears to have motif on the mimi and the motif appears to be more well executed. Do I win a cookie? Quote
Shugyosha Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 I’m on my phone and can’t magnify the pictures but I’ll guess the left hand one for the same reason as JohnC but also because the seppa dai is patinated and it doesn’t have the tagane ato similar to the Nagoyamono examples earlier on the thread. 1 1 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 No, it’s not a trick question! Simply an illustration of how we can look but not actually see unless we know what we are looking at. Someone has paid a lot of money for 2 Mr Suzuki, albeit very flashy ones. The left hand one is head and shoulders above the other two but it is not immedi obvious is it? https://www.bonhams....ions/14043/lot/6099/ On 2/8/2025 at 6:45 PM, Dan tsuba said: would have to see more pictures with different views of the tsuba. Expand Not necessary if you know what to look for. 1 2 Quote
Infinite_Wisdumb Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 On 2/8/2025 at 7:38 PM, Matsunoki said: No, it’s not a trick question! Simply an illustration of how we can look but not actually see unless we know what we are looking at. Someone has paid a lot of money for 2 Mr Suzuki, albeit very flashy ones. The left hand one is head and shoulders above the other two but it is not immedi obvious is it? https://www.bonhams....ions/14043/lot/6099/ Not necessary if you know what to look for. Expand Im back from the dead to applaud you Colin. Look for the Tagane Ato near the Hitsu Ana. Always the same pattern. Nanako size, Suzuki is always larger than good quality ones. Cheap pained on gold guilding for Suzuki. Often the seppa dai coloration is not the same color as the Shakudo nanako. Cheers 4 Quote
Dan tsuba Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 Thanks Colin, A fun exercise and a good learning experience. Maybe some more stuff like this would help those of us who still have much to learn! Posting pictures of tsuba, having members make a choice and then you explaining the correct choice that should be made. Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 Please do not regard me as a tsuba expert. My knowledge lies mostly in Japanese Metalwork (and other arts) and I’m hopeless on things like tsuba schools, signatures etc. My approach has always been to understand and recognise quality irrespective of who made it. If you can recognise quality (more relevant to kinko work) then you’ve cracked it. Vital learning point (imo) ….quality can never lie. 6 2 Quote
Franco Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 On 2/8/2025 at 6:31 PM, Matsunoki said: which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…? Expand None of the above. Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 On 2/8/2025 at 8:26 PM, Franco D said: None of the above. Expand Why? Quote
Franco Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 On 2/8/2025 at 9:01 PM, Matsunoki said: Why? Expand On 2/8/2025 at 8:26 PM, Franco D said: None of the above. Expand On 2/8/2025 at 6:31 PM, Matsunoki said: which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…? Expand Quality is the criteria for making all my choices. How do you determine and gauge quality? You begin by looking at the best, not by some measure in our own minds. A better question might be how would you grade these three tsuba? Ah, but first you have to have a scale. Grade and quality in comparison to what? 1 Quote
Scogg Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 On 2/8/2025 at 10:35 PM, Franco D said: Grade and quality in comparison to what? Expand It was my understanding that the exercise was to compare quality amongst the three available options. Although I can see how the wording didn’t make that explicitly clear. I’d love to see your interpretation on the exercise. To share three tsuba of varying quality, and see if us beginner collectors can pick out the best one. Maybe we could learn something! Sincerely, -Sam 3 Quote
Dan tsuba Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 A little off topic here. But just because a copper type tsuba has a series of tagane-ato punch marks in a specific type of pattern (or close to that pattern) it does not mean it is (what has been called on this thread) a Mr. Suzuki tsuba. I refer you to the below listed thread on one of my first tsuba purchases about 6 years ago. I remember paying about 70 dollars for this tsuba. If it had all its patina and gold coloring on the leaves, it would be worth several thousand dollars. But the craftsmanship of the nanako and the motif remains the same, even if it had been overcleaned when I purchased it. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28108-brass-tsuba/#comment-283873 1 1 Quote
Jesta Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 On 2/8/2025 at 7:24 PM, GeorgeLuucas said: I’d choose left, personally Expand I think that I lost the auction on that one… Looks very similar to one I bid on once… edit: Looking at the Bonhams link, it wasn’t the one I bid on. That was a single lot, but looked very similar. 1 Quote
Jesta Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 On 2/8/2025 at 6:31 PM, Matsunoki said: A lighthearted question…..you can only buy one of these tsuba…..which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…? Expand Definitely the lefthand one. (see above, but I bid on a very similar one as a single lot, and lost). The problem with comparing from pictures is that you really have to go on the quality of the picture to start with. Many sins can be hidden with some creative lighting… I also don’t like bidding on mixed lots because you tend to get some crud with some not-quite-cream… (Edit) Criteria: Artistic merit - the way that the dragon moves through the tsuba is very appealing. Skill: I really appreciate good quality nanako, but I am sometimes swayed by overall design or “feel” (which is why I liked the tanto tsuba posted above) Fit: It needs to work with my current collection as much as possible 1 Quote
Franco Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 On 2/8/2025 at 11:16 PM, GeorgeLuucas said: I’d love to see your interpretation on the exercise. Expand To my eye none of the three tsuba presented present quality above average, not materially, not artistically. So, what you're left with is which of the three is #1, #2, and #3? There's really not much of a lesson to learn here. Study the best, then collect what you like. 1 1 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 (edited) On 2/8/2025 at 11:39 PM, Dan tsuba said: If it had all its patina and gold coloring on the leaves, it would be worth several thousand dollars. Expand Dan…..use your eyes. Whoever told you that😳? Sorry, but it’s a Nagoya Mono ie Mr Suzuki. It is a poorly cast and somewhat abused example. It was probably sold with no gold wash…just plain black (many were)If you cannot see that after this thread …….. Edited February 9 by Matsunoki Typo 1 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 On 2/8/2025 at 10:35 PM, Franco D said: Quality is the criteria for making all my choices. Expand Good for you. Shame your knowledge couldn’t pick out the better quality one from the two Nagoya Mono. Everyone else got the drift of my light hearted teaser but you choose to complicate it. On 2/9/2025 at 4:00 AM, Franco D said: To my eye none of the three tsuba presented present quality above average, not materially, not artistically. Expand That was not what I said nor what I asked. On 2/9/2025 at 4:00 AM, Franco D said: So, what you're left with is which of the three is #1, #2, and #3? Expand Again that is not what I asked. I did not ask to rank them, just pick the best one and it’s pretty obvious when you know what to look for. On 2/8/2025 at 10:35 PM, Franco D said: How do you determine and gauge quality? Expand By having a thorough understanding of the different methods of construction, the alloys used and by handling all qualities from Natsuo to Nagoya mono…..everything in between. The difference between overlay and inlay and the different methods of inlay. The different methods of texture and patina creation. The difference between cast vs cast and hand finished vs fully hand carved from scratch etc etc etc On 2/8/2025 at 10:35 PM, Franco D said: Ah, but first you have to have a scale. Expand Please be serious. In my opinion you have just decided to be bloody minded and try to spoil a simple attempt to illustrate the difference between Nagoya Mono and the real deal. I posed the question because many are getting caught out by not being able to differentiate. PLEASE go and argue with someone else or start your own thread. I await that with interest. 2 1 1 1 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 On 2/8/2025 at 7:48 PM, Infinite_Wisdumb said: Im back from the dead to applaud you Colin. Expand Many thanks. Sounds like you might have had a rough time……Hope things have improved and welcome back. 3 Quote
Franco Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 On 2/9/2025 at 9:02 AM, Matsunoki said: Good for you. Shame your knowledge couldn’t pick out the better quality one from the two Nagoya Mono. Everyone else got the drift of my light hearted teaser but you choose to complicate it. Expand On 2/9/2025 at 4:00 AM, Franco D said: So, what you're left with is which of the three is #1, #2, and #3? Expand Collin, what's not to get! It was an exercise in mediocrity. Nothing to learn besides what not to collect! In this whole thread it hasn't been established what A+ shakudo, or A+ nanako, or an A+ shakudo-nanako tsuba really looks like. So what is it that you're studying? What's the lesson here? Start at the bottom and work your way up? As you were. 1 Quote
John C Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 Franco: I, for one, appreciate the exercise. Knowledge is useless if it can't be put into practice - that's why schools and universities give tests. I also tend to live in mediocrity financially, so this level of difference is right up my ally and will hopefully assist me in not wasting too much money on pure junk. John C. 3 1 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 On 2/9/2025 at 4:07 PM, Franco D said: Nothing to learn besides what not to collect! Expand Are you so blind that you cannot see that that alone is a valuable lesson? If it helps anyone to avoid buying poor quality that has to be a good thing…..Yes or No will do. On 2/9/2025 at 4:07 PM, Franco D said: In this whole thread it hasn't been established what A+ shakudo, or A+ nanako, or an A+ shakudo-nanako tsuba really looks like. Expand Again you entirely miss the point. It was never the intention to illustrate the finest pieces…..it was exactly the opposite….to illustrate the poorer pieces thus trying to give a few warnings/pointers to watch out for. I suggest you actually carefully re read the thread, and then go argue with someone else because you’re in a hole and still digging. Quote
Franco Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 Yeah, keep studying s**t without ever learning what you should be studying! 1 2 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 OK Franco…..tell me which of these artists you have actually owned and/or paid huge money to get restored by the best restorers in the world….. Kano Natsuo Unno Shomin Ozeki Yamada Motonobu Hasegawa Issei Iwamoto Konkan Kajima Ikkoku Suzuki Chokichi Kanazawa Doki Kaisha Sano Takachika …..and many more …..I’m talking Khalili quality metalwork, the very finest ever made. On 2/9/2025 at 4:07 PM, Franco D said: So what is it that you're studying? What's the lesson here? Start at the bottom and work your way up? Expand No, avoid the bottom and work your way up. Is that so difficult to understand. Now just go away and annoy someone else. You are making yourself look deliberately obtuse. 2 Quote
Franco Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 On 2/9/2025 at 4:31 PM, John C said: I , for one, appreciate the exercise. Knowledge is useless if it can't be put into practice - that's why schools and universities give tests. I also tend to live in mediocrity financially, so this level of difference is right up my ally and will hopefully assist me in not wasting too much money on pure junk. Expand And that's fine. The point I'm trying and apparently failing to make, is that by studying the best, learning to recognize what excellence in Nihonto and Japanese sword furniture really is, really means, really looks like, then junk "hurts your eyes as the Japanese say!" What does Colin's lineup look like if 3 more even better pieces were added in? Then Colin's best tsuba suddenly doesn't look that great anymore. Why? Answer that question then the entire picture is complete. People have to live within their means. But that doesn't mean they should not peel away the blinders. Take off the blinders. Buy what you like, but fully understand what you're buying! At Japanese sword shows, excellent pieces, even A+ pieces, both swords and in fittings, have been purchased for what amounts to the price of perhaps a few mediocre pieces. Why? Because somebody did their homework! Somebody noticed something that others didn't. Regards, 1 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 9 Report Posted February 9 You just keep on digging Franco. Now you introduce an air of condescension into the thread. Again I suggest you re-read the thread.……and you will see they are not “my tsuba” but a very apt and suitable Lot from Bonhams that perfectly illustrated the actual subject under discussion……which most who took part in found useful. 2 Quote
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