Recently purchased tsuba

[Brian]

6 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Maybe it is one of those tsuba that has a thin layer of cast iron placed on the surface of the tsuba and then the motif was placed onto the tsuba or molded into the cast iron....

 

You mean those tsuba that don't exist?

[KungFooey]

[ROKUJURO]

7 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

....Please, can you back up your statements with references or pictures.....

Yes, I could, but I don't debate with you, and I don't wish to teach you.

Just get yourself informed, there are more sources out there than Dr. Stein's.

[Brian]

 

[Baka Gaijin]

Back in the late 1960's, what passed then as Iai/Batto Training swords available in the UK from a certain entrepreneurial supplier came with Tsuba of an Ersatz Sanmai construction.

 

The core was really soft and low melting point metal with two stamped sheets of thin copper like metal which was "paint gilded" to look the part.

 

 

 

[Scogg]

Adding this translation to the discussion for those who aren’t already aware. 

 

I have found that learning the Japanese translations of many of these terms can be helpful.

 

All the best,

Sam 

[Iekatsu]

The vast majority of San-mai Tsuba, including all the examples in this thread are from the Edo period, they are mass produced and generally poor quality. Pre-Edo examples exist but they are a very different beast. Papering for San-mai Tsuba is pretty bad, the attributuons are all over the place and many that get papered as Ko-kinko/mino should not be.

 

[MauroP]

1 hour ago, Iekatsu said:

The vast majority of San-mai Tsuba, including all the examples in this thread are from the Edo period, they are mass produced and generally poor quality. Pre-Edo examples exist but they are a very different beast. Papering for San-mai Tsuba is pretty bad, the attributuons are all over the place and many that get papered as Ko-kinko/mino should not be.

You are possibly right, but most NBTHK shinsa staff think otherwise...

[Matsunoki]

Is there any reliable dating source for tsuba like the daisho pair being discussed here? I don’t mean quoting shinsa results which seem very doubtful to my eye (ko-kinko???) - but serious historical evidence? In no way can these be considered good quality……cheap poorly copies of the real thing….imo

Do the NBTHK paper shiremono kozuka?…..because these tsuba fall into the same category of work….imo

[Dan tsuba]

Some past sanmai tsuba threads on NMB-

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/11578-kinko-san-mai-tsuba/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/29248-stampedcastchiseled-tsuba/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/39026-edo-sanmai-tsuba-and-fittings/

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/48173-show-me-your-sanmai-tsuba/

These threads show many sanmai type tsuba and have a lot of good information.

[MauroP]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Is there any reliable dating source

Have we any reliable dating source for whatsoever unsigned tsuba?

[Matsunoki]

21 minutes ago, MauroP said:

Have we any reliable dating source for whatsoever unsigned tsuba?

Dunno. That’s why I asked. I assume not then?

So we must judge by technique, quality and prevailing market drivers. 
Most just seem to be attempts to emulate Mino or maybe Omori.

I can fully understand and appreciate the real thing being papered but poor quality copies??

[Shugyosha]

Maybe it's the usual thing with hozon - if it's identifiable as a period piece and it's condition is adequate to make that decision then it gets papered irrespective of quality?

[Matsunoki]

Thanks John, I rather thought that would be the case which is why I asked the question about reliable period dating….which seems not to exist…..but some  papers I’ve seen have really “surprised” me. I ponder “how on earth did that get papered?”
Anyway best I stop there or I’ll be strung up! 

 

[Iekatsu]

Dating anything that is not recorded, dated or present in archaeology, is rife with difficulty. Often the only clues we have are in the style, motif, construction methods/techniques and materials. All of which are further confused by opinions/information that that has been disseminated and repeated by well meaning experts without sufficient evidence.

[Bugyotsuji]

3枚 san mai simply means three sheets, or three-ply. 枚 Mai is a ‘flat thing’ counter for leaves, sheets of paper for example.

(‘Three pieces’ in the above dictionary is a loose cop-out. Sometimes we have to cross-check to get a better approximation of the meaning, although sadly many dictionaries simply copy each other with no deeper understanding.)