Recently purchased tsuba

[Franco D]

48 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Now just go away and annoy someone else. You are making yourself look deliberately obtuse.

 

Thanks, Colin. Besides, I wasn't going to answer your first question anyway as it really isn't anyone's  business. Even rude to ask, but that's you. What I will say is that I've done my homework. 

 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Franco D said:

Yeah, keep studying s**t without ever learning what you should be studying! 

Good job I’m not as sensitive (or rude) as you obviously are. I’m guessing yours would be a rather short list yes?

I don’t think the artists I mentioned are s**t but you possibly haven’t heard of half of them?
 

[Franco D]

41 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

and you will see they are not “my tsuba” but a very apt and suitable Lot from Bonhams that perfectly illustrated the actual subject under discussion……which most who took part in found useful.

 

Ah, Colin, of course you take it to mean yours as in yours personally, and not yours as in your pick, or your choice. 

But just by the fact that your not willing to let this go now after telling me to get lost, which I was going to do, demonstrates just how personally you are taking this. 

[Matsunoki]

1 minute ago, Franco D said:

demonstrates just how personally you are taking this. 

No, just trying to stay factually accurate.

Bye then. 

[Franco D]

11 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

I don’t think the artists I mentioned are s**t but you possibly haven’t heard of half of them?

 

Oh, I have heard of all of them and many more. Your tit for tat baiting is very immature, and I'm still not going to tell you.

 

 

[John C]

I'm interested in learning from this thread, so let's not get it locked!

Just to clarify my learning goals - I agree that if one is learning for learning sake, one can study the best artists to determine what makes a master a master or a journeyman a journeyman. But I'm not there yet. I would not graduate high school and go straight to Med school. I would first study basic science, physiology, and chemistry, get proficient there, then go on to Med school, then do a residency, then become a doctor. I prefer to learn in stages.

 

John C.

[Geraint]

Gentlemen.

 

Without wishing to speak for Colin, which he is well able to do himself, it seems that the purpose of the exercise was simply to be able to spot Nagoya mono work and tell it from other examples. The uniformity of the punch marks around the nakago ana, while different from the tsuba in the OP, is a distinguishing feature, as is the brownish tinge to the base metal revealed on the nakago ana.  So far, so good.  Within the constraints of the post that should lead you to an obvious conclusion in the exercise that Colin set.

 

The responses demonstrate that this was a useful exercise for some of our members.  The larger point that I feel Franco is suggesting is that none of the three examples used to illustrate the point represent really great quality, either in design or craft.  This takes the discussion to a different level, one which, with a certain degree of irony, Colin has consistently spoken to with his emphasis on training one's eye by viewing genuinely high quality examples on the sites of auction houses such as Bonhams.

 

All who have contributed to this thread have been engaged on the same quest, developing a critical and informed ability to look at and assess tsuba, to learn to see what is good and what is truly great.  Some have been teachers and some students but that is the best of NMB, is it not?

 

All the best, (And learning every day!)

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

So, to continue the discussion constructively, have a look at this daisho pair on eBay.. 

First glance you might be tempted to say WOW -  but look closely. Have the customary Nagoya mono tagane ato been disguised by punching over them? Look at the really poor quality of the nanako and the poor definition of the seppadai. The heavily rippled plate. The poor definition in the flowers. Then look closely at the gold paint (?) / gilding (?)…..it looks too fresh, too new, and look at how it has spread around many edges of the flowers etc ….looks like it has oozed/flowed onto the plate. It shouldn’t look like that.

Nagoya mono daisho tsuba are known to exist. 

Now, do alarm bells start ringing? Mine do. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/356533197486?_skw=daisho+tsuba&itmmeta=01JKQH87YJJVR3K2FWZ75NDH4W&hash=item530308daae:g:Lf4AAOSwZ~NnobvT&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKklPYAfvVjm6mBHHLBasZnwpd57rVVQze96nh%2BTE%2F8q7cnwkkEPrhU%2BDAf%2FLQHFE4nSYWq1fLbz5r2jYXxCTDAhudJihLucxYvTi9zFP1JWY2goCM%2FkYGaIs8F%2FMZgSoDPATgP4P%2B5znsJfd1y2OW7wTb6UmvWr4%2B3%2BlECfeThgT9kirHol7Vw3LAympcR4KPNQUQr96b76IP13EtIWz9nGF14XfPCmL2idnYovXMzwBnG9Gza1LHdt583ygmn4aAIlV%2BQtKwYVwugsjc0FnpxiuC9ZoHH0NUATMG8e0GWMrw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR7b_oPGdZQ

[Geraint]

Dear Colin.

 

Are you teasing?  That's an unusual san mai awase daisho, surely?  Good to make us look carefully though.

 

All the best.

[Dan tsuba]

I agree wth Geraint,

The tsuba appear to be sanmai construction.

They seem to look O.K. to me for sanmai.

But I am probably wrong, once again!

[Shugyosha]

Whatever it is, it does look pretty poor quality though - just considering the "nanako" itself, it's of varying heights and shapes and non-existent in places and that alone would make me steer clear.

[KungFooey]

I believe @Matsunoki is right - the 'gilding' very obviously spills onto the main plate.

Rather than 'gild a lily' someone has attempted to 'polish a tu..' ... well, you know the rest.

 

And one person's idea of judging "mediocrity" is another's highly informative learning curve.

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Hi Geraint….No I was not teasing! I simply had not twigged these are made from pressed plates! I took one look at the description and another at the quality and simply thought they look heavily restored crap!. Being honest I’m not at all familiar with this type of tsuba. So the ura and omote plates are pressed or stamped as per shiremono kozuka?
Are they all this bad? 
Another way to create the Mino Goto look without the effort?
Imo the gilding or whatever it is has been re-done with modern gold plating fluid and hasn’t been done well (usually you use masking fluid to protect areas that you don’t want gilded (as per a restorer I know))

…… as you said earlier….learning every day!

[Dan tsuba]

Sanmai tsuba have the same motif on the ura and omote side because the same master plate is used to make the pressed motif that appears on the tsuba plates.

They also have a fukurin on the mimi to keep the tsuba plates from splitting away from the core.

So, I would say that these tsuba are sanmai type tsuba.

Again, they don’t look bad for sanmai type tsuba, even though it appears there has been some slight raising (in some small areas) of one of the plates.

My opinion.

[KungFooey]

6 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Sanmai tsuba have the same motif on the ura and omote side because the same master plate is used to make the pressed motif that appears on the tsuba plates.

Dan,

I promise you I do not wish to get into another back-and-forth with you. I'm sick of drawing the ire of people on here but, using your own definition of sanmai tsuba above to illustrate the point, you can see quite clearly in the photo below that, although superficially very similar, the two sides of the plugged tsuba have differently positioned flowers etc.

[John C]

Here is a good shot of Colin's observations: the over-paint/gilding, the over-punch, and the terrible nanako job. Thanks Colin.

 

John C.

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Dee,

Good hearing from you!

Maybe the motifs are slightly different on the ura and omote sides (but I can't see it - maybe I need new glasses!).

Maybe some of the flowers were not as fully gilded as the others?

But, I still think that these are sanmai tsuba.

I hope some other members chime in with their opinions (because I am probably wrong, once again!).

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

Maybe the motifs are slightly different on the ura and omote sides (but I can't see it - maybe I need new glasses!).

Dan, if you cannot see that the plates are different then for sure you need a visit to the opticians. Being able to see the detail is absolutely vital especially in Kinko tsuba……and that is where I have failed on these.

I did not spot that they were of multiplate construction and although they are horrible quality and very poorly restored you are right….if sanmai is what this method is called then you are correct, they are sanmai.

This method is obviously a very cheap cheat so I doubt the plates are made from real shakudo but more probably the “look alike” alloy used on Nagoya mono. Shakudo is very expensive. 

The construction is really only visible on just one image where the interior of the nakago ana is shown although I’m sure those of you who are familiar with them could spot it a mile away. 

To describe them as shakudo nanako tsuba is a blatant misdescription….so what’s new there….sadly. Nanako work, Finely carved, gold rim….😳😳

Anyway, I’m off to the opticians tomorrow 🙂

 

 

 

[Geraint]

For any who do not know there is a little information about these here, https://www.Japanese...com/tsuba/sanmai.htm

 

The basic quality point stands but one would not be looking for/expecting the level of quality that one might find in other tsuba when looking at san mai awase tsuba and as they are often early then a considerable degree of wear is accepted, I think.

 

All the best.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Geraint,

Thanks for the link about sanmai tsuba.  Good informatiion!

[Okan]

Where is Dale? @Spartancrest  (He hasn't been online for the past 2 weeks..)

Anyone know?

 

 

[Steves87]

16 hours ago, Okan said:

Where is Dale? @Spartancrest  (He hasn't been online for the past 2 weeks..)

Anyone know?

 

I just posted about this....

 

 

[MauroP]

20 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Sanmai tsuba have the same motif on the ura and omote side because the same master plate is used to make the pressed motif that appears on the tsuba plates.

They also have a fukurin on the mimi to keep the tsuba plates from splitting away from the core.

So, I would say that these tsuba are sanmai type tsuba.

On this point I completely agree with Dan (well, unusual, but can happen...). On the image below the red arrows point at different gilding of the same items in ura and omote. Quite interesting, the green arrow points at an unpressed area (confirming the way of production).
So for sure, IMHO, a sanmai tsuba of lower quality BUT possibly very old (usualy papered as ko-kinko by NBTHK). Not worth the price asked, but not rubbish...

 

[Matsunoki]

@Dan tsuba, or perhaps we should say Hawkeye?

You were right Dan, twice on one thread! I had to get my mag glass out and still it took me some time. 
You missed out on the cookie earlier but have one now on me…..🍪🍪

Serioulsy - hats off - good spot.

[John C]

Speaking of sanmai...and in an effort to train the eye, would this be an example of sanmai? I think I can see a copper (?) core and a thin layer of iron or steel.

 

John C.

[Dan tsuba]

John, 

I can't discern if it is a sanmai tsuba.  I does not  look like one because it has no fukurin on the mimi and it looks to be made of iron.

If you could provide better pictures (in focus), maybe then I and other members can help you out.

But my initial evaluation is no, it is not sanmai.

It does not appear as if it is folded steel.

Maybe it is one of those tsuba that has a thin layer of cast iron placed on the surface of the tsuba and then the motif was placed onto the tsuba or molded into the cast iron.

Hell, I don't know!  It is just my best guess!

I brought that up in another thread, but I can't remember which one!

Onward!

 

[ROKUJURO]

With a better photo you could possibly see more, but SANMAI TSUBA are not made with iron or steel.

Not all SAN MAI TSUBA have a FUKURIN, some are riveted together, some are glued with URUSHI, others can even be brazed together.

[Dan tsuba]

Jean,

There you go again!

Sanmai tsuba with fukurin are shown in the link provided by Geraint and referred to below-

https://www.Japanese...com/tsuba/sanmai.htm

In my collection I also have two sanmai tsuba that have fukurin (and I will include pictures if you so desire).

In your post you stated-

“Not all SAN MAI TSUBA have a FUKURIN, some are riveted together, some are glued with URUSHI, others can even be brazed together.”

Please, can you back up your statements with references or pictures.

I will no longer just take your word (or opinions) of what you state (after about 6 years of your opinions regarding my threads ) without backing up your statements with references or pictures.

That shouldn’t be so difficult to do.

 

 

 

 

 

[John C]

Okay. Got it. So the presence of the fukurin would be a key indicator. Thank you.

John C.

[Dan tsuba]

John C.,

The presence of a fukurin on a sanmai tsuba is just my opinion (backed up with the reference that Geriant stated) and the two sanmai tsuba that I have in my collection.

But I guess the hate and downvotes will continue for me.

I have no idea why, but it is what it is!

Onward to more learning and fun!