Coldramen Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 I recently purchased this tsuba on ebay, can anyone tell me anything about it? I'm new to this whole sword and fitting thing so any help is appreciated. 1 Quote
Scogg Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 (edited) Hi Edward, welcome to the forum! What you have there is a tsuba for a Japanese Tanto. It appears to be made out of Shakudo (this is an alloy of mostly copper with a little gold). The dimpling on the Shakudo is called NANAKO. The flower is referred to as a kirimon or Kiri. It's the flower of a paulownia tree (empress tree). I have a very similar tanto tsuba in my collection (see below), but yours looks a little nicer than mine. Cheers, and welcome! -Sam Edited February 6 by GeorgeLuucas grammar and added photo 2 1 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 Sam, Thank you for the information. Would you happen to know how old that one of yours is? -Edward Quote
Scogg Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 Good question Edward, I suspect mine to be late edo period. Although, I'm no expert and not really sure... Maybe someone more knowledgeable will chime in, and help us put a date range both of our Tsuba Cheers, -Sam 1 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 Thank you Sam, Here's hoping for an expert! -Edward 1 Quote
Jesta Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 Nice piece. I have one that is almost identical. I really like these little tanto tsuba. It’s interesting to note that yours has space for both a kogatana and a kogai. 1 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 Interesting. Is there a chance all three of these were made by the same person? Quote
ROKUJURO Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 Edward, this is a HAMIDASHI TSUBA. Yours is unfortunately slightly damaged. Did you see that one KIRI flower is lost? That may explain the price. E-Bay is difficult for beginners! 2 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 Jean, Yeah I did, I was on a budget however, so I had to compromise somewhere. Quote
Scogg Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 Funny coincidence, one kiri is lost on mine too! Any thoughts on the possible age, Jean? Quote
Dan tsuba Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 Edward, Welcome to this great forum! Your tanto tsuba looks nice. Putting a date on a tsuba is very difficult, even if there is a mei (signature) on the tusba. Deals can still be had on ebay. Read some tsuba beginner books and look at pictures of tsuba on various sites. Also, refer to some threads here that refer to ebay and tsuba purchasing. The majority of tsuba I have purchased are from ebay. I have about 150 tsuba and have got bitten (purchased a repro or a fake tsuba) maybe 5 times. I don’t spend over $150 on a tsuba, so if I make a mistake I don’t lose a lot of money. Myself and other members on this forum will be more than happy to help you out. Before you purchase another tsuba from ebay, maybe you can ask for assistance from members of this forum. If you don’t want to post a picture or the price that the tsuba is selling for (because other members may try and snipe it from you) you can always PM (Personal Message) me. Just trying to help and assist you. 1 Quote
Jesta Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 1 hour ago, Coldramen said: Interesting. Is there a chance all three of these were made by the same person? If not the same person, then probably a high chance that they were made in the same workshop. Given the preference for nanako tosogu with family crests for formal occasions they were probably produced in large quantities. 1 Quote
ROKUJURO Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 Sam, I would have thought 19th century as you suggested yourself, but I have no expertise in KINKO TSUBA. There are older ones that look very close. 3 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 I’m not looking to spoil things folks - honestly, but I suspect Mr Suzuki and his Nagoya mono workshop may have had a hand in all of these. The mon appear cast in, but not inlaid and just the way the Tagane ato are done….all very similar. If that is the case they are not shakudo but probably an alloy that can be patinated to resemble shakudo with a thin gold wash applied to the mon. Just a hunch. @Spartancrest……any views? 1 1 Quote
Scogg Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 Thanks Colin, that’s an interesting thread! And no spoiling this parade, I got mine for very cheap at a show; and the truth is always the goal. Here’s some more photos of mine incase it helps ID. Curious to see what @Spartancrest thinks! Thanks again, Cheers, -Sam Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 Hi Sam, well the extra images pretty much convince me that we are talking about Nagoya mono pieces here. The alloy colour does not look like shakudo and you can now see where the mon has been soldered on rather than inlaid. I at first thought that they were cast in one piece with the tsuba but now that looks like a rough solder jobbie. Also the way the patina is wearing and it’s colour does not look “right”….difficult to explain. When in pristine condition the output from this outfit can look really very smart……but up close tells a different story. One of these I think even looks like it’s been mounted…..I have seen others actually on swords so they were definitely mounted at times. I am no expert in particular schools but I think their output is often referred to as Mino Goto style or Mino school style. The word style is the important word! ….but still just my opinion so don’t take it as gospel! Best. Colin. 1 1 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 7 Author Report Posted February 7 Colin, Forgive me for not understanding. Are these still antiques? Or are they complete fakes? Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 Edward, these are still antiques. They are not fakes in the modern sense. They are tsuba made to look like much more expensive and time consuming pieces but are made using much cheaper and quicker methods and materials. They are often cast in an alloy and then use multipatination techniques to replicate the effect of true mixed metal inlays. It is very clever but means multiples of the same tsuba (sometimes with small changes) can be knocked out rapidly but look very impressive. I would guess second half of 19thC possibly into Meiji but I don’t think anyone really knows for absolute sure the exact dates or exact location of manufacture. Id hope others will chime in especially Dale. 2 Quote
John C Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 They all still appear to me to have the nanako hand punched, as opposed to cast or molded. If they are "copies" they at least did some handwork on them. John C. 1 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 7 Author Report Posted February 7 John, Well that's nice to hear! I'm relieved to know they have at least some artistic merit. -Edward Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 Purely for quality comparison…..compare the nanako and the precision of finishing the inlay etc. This is also a small Tanto tsuba. Comparisons are always the best way to improve our “eyes”. (Imo!) 2 1 Quote
Scogg Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 No doubt about the increase in quality on that one, Colin. Very nice piece! Thank you. For the sake of comparing. I’ve taken some photos from the Nagoya workshop thread to put side by side with our little tanto tsuba. The first three are from this thread, the following are from the Nagoya workshop thread. Looking them over, I will say, I prefer the simple motif, patina, and nanako on our tanto tsuba more than the examples in the other thread. But… I absolutely see what you mean about quality, and am inclined to agree with your Nagoya workshop ID. Thanks again, Cheers, -Sam Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 Sam, Without checking I think that butterfly one is possibly mine!. I bought it knowing what it was and I think I put it on the Nagoya thread! I think we would really need all the pieces in hand to make detailed comparisons but once you get your eye in Mr Suzuki becomes a bit more obvious although they can look really impressive…..eg !!!….caveat emptor! https://www.ebay.com/itm/296961155764 1 Quote
John C Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 Taking a step back for a moment, I see issues with comparing tsuba I see on auction sites with those that are obviously museum quality or done by master craftsmen. Is there no middle ground? In other words, aren't some "average" quality tsuba still legitimate (pre-1868)? How does one tell the difference between a legitimate Edo period average craftsman and a "Mr. Suzuki" repro? John C. 1 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 8 Author Report Posted February 8 John, Agreed. Comparing every single tsuba you purchase with museum quality examples doesn't seem very logical imo. -Edward Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 1 hour ago, John C said: Mr. Suzuki" repro? Mr Suzuki are NOT repro or fake in the modern sense. They are tsuba made more cheaply and quickly than high class pieces made by higher end craftsmen. Some exhibit definite signs of being mounted and I’ve had at least one sword with one on that was untouched from Samurai times. However it is obvious that they appealed to the gaijin present in Japan in late Edo and Meiji and Mr Suzuki saw an opportunity to make some money…..and made a lot of them in large multiples. In my mind that does not make them fake, just cheap and quick. 1 hour ago, John C said: How does one tell the difference between a legitimate Edo period average craftsman and a "Mr. Suzuki" repro? By developing an eye and increasing your experience so that you can tell the difference. Handle as many as you can and learn by comparison 1 1 Quote
Matsunoki Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 2 minutes ago, Coldramen said: Comparing every single tsuba you purchase with museum quality examples doesn't seem very logical imo. That depends on whether you want to learn or not. Being able to tell poor from average from above average from fantastic is surely essential IF you want to build a quality collection. If you just want a lot of tsuba then fine, buy anything. (and don’t believe everything you see and read in museums. Half the time they don’t know either) 4 Quote
Coldramen Posted February 8 Author Report Posted February 8 I will take your advice. I should probably value knowledge over objects after all. Let's stop arguing before things get out of control. Quote
Shugyosha Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 Also a lot of museum collections are based on donations made by 19th century collectors who made bulk buys of lower grade and gimei tsuba. “Museum quality” tsuba are often not so good as those in private collections. If you haven’t already, a good look at this thread: 2 Quote
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