Tsuba Sold For 86,000Y, I See Warning Signs

[cluckdaddy76]

Part of how I study is to follow questionable pieces at auctions and see the outcome. This one stood out to me because of the same color sekigane. Sorry for the poor circling in the pic, but people with knowledge clearly do not need me to point this out. Am I missing something or is this a reproduction piece as I am guessing? I have noticed recently when it comes to auctions that there seem to be newer collectors with some money possibly making very bad choices. Thought this might be an interesting discussion, I would love to hear feedback from a few of the tsuba collectors with much more knowledge than me. 

 

Jason

 

[parfaitelumiere]

I saw several cast Soten tsuba, actually well cast and having electronic gold or silver plating, on iron or bronze base, but same as you are pointing, cast massive sekigane, added to weaker design and more blurry finish, it's a good way to recognize things which are becoming more and more common...
It would be interesting to see other pictures of that tsuba, here all seems made from same material, are there copper silver or gold color accents?

[ROKUJURO]

Jason,

this seems to be a black and white photos, so I think it is difficult to see what the SEKI-GANE are made of.

[cluckdaddy76]

Sorry for the pic quality, best i can do in this case

[cluckdaddy76]

With taxes, fees, and shipping, winner paid close to $700 USD for this gem.

[Jesta]

Too many red flags for me. The sekigane and the treatment of the water are very similar to one that I bought at the start of my collecting journey: 

 

I would find it hard to think that this one is not a modern cast. 

[cluckdaddy76]

Too bad auction sites don't have a commentary section while bidding occurs, we could help people from buying these items. There is no way any auction site will add that feature in my opinion, they are there to make money and let the buyer beware!!!

 

 

[Jesta]

2 hours ago, cluckdaddy76 said:

Too bad auction sites don't have a commentary section while bidding occurs, we could help people from buying these items. There is no way any auction site will add that feature in my opinion, they are there to make money and let the buyer beware!!!

 

 

You aren’t wrong… It goes with the territory, which I think is why the best advice for beginners is to avoid the auction sites that take no responsibility for what is sold (e.g. eBay), to be prepared to make a few mistakes, to keep those mistakes as cheap as possible, and to learn from them… 

Threads like this do help, since there is a good chance that someone looking to start collecting may well wander in and read them before buying. 

[Bugyotsuji]

There are millions of NLO (Netsuké-like objects) out there to catch the novice.
 

One of the challenges for any budding collector is to swim through the field, avoiding the tricks and traps, and to train the eye to recognize those rare gems. In the same way perhaps we need an expression like TLO to designate such ‘tsuba-like objects’ as the one you spotted.

 

Of course, if you have the time you can study, and if you have the money you can go to a reputable dealer, hear their story, pay top dollar, and buy more safely.

 

 

[parfaitelumiere]

the same type of cast stuff as I described, the second exemple is similar to what I saw, I remember a thread here with a rooster tsuba, people thought about real work, but it was a cast piece, I spotted it as I saw a similar one on yahoo.

[ROKUJURO]

17 hours ago, Jesta said:

.....the best advice for beginners is to avoid the auction sites...., to be prepared to make a few mistakes, to keep those mistakes as cheap as possible, and to learn from them… .. 

Well Justyn, 

could you imagine a living person who buys as cheap as possible, who does not believe they made mistakes, and who does not learn from the items?
 

 

[Jesta]

Well Jean…

In my day job, I’m a teacher, so I try to live in the belief that people can learn (despite evidence to the contrary) 🤣🤣

[Stephen]

10 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Well Justyn, 

could you imagine a living person who buys as cheap as possible, who does not believe they made mistakes, and who does not learn from the items?
 

 

Going to have to steal that Jean 

[Spartancrest]

https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/q1157883646  &    https://www.jauce.com/auction/q1157883646

 

   the buyer could have got a better deal for the cast guard 10,500 yen  - but it was still way way way overpriced!

 

 

  this one advertised on a Chinese site for ¥11,840 JPY*    Well you know if you see two it is dodgy, three very dodgy!! 

 

If only they had used real sekigane - they might have put a bit more effort separating people from their money!

 

[Yes I am back - being dead is much easier though!]

[Matsunoki]

6 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Yes I am back - being dead is much easier though!]

Great to see you back Dale. 

[Exclus1ve]

Hello! What do you think about the authenticity of this tsuba?

[Exclus1ve]

There are similar details…

[Jesta]

 

6 hours ago, Exclus1ve said:

There are similar details…

I see warning signs here too… The waves and figures are not crisp and there appears to be artefacts left over from a casting process. The sekigane appears to be cast too. 

[ROKUJURO]

It looks like a genuine cast TSUBA copy to me.

[Spartancrest]

https://tsubashi.com/product/tsuba-of-emperor-liu-beis-escape/

 

This site has some interesting info :  

Iron, marugata, carving done in takabori style, depicting a scene from the Three Kingdoms, where Emperor Liu Bei escapes his pursuers by crossing the Tan River.

The style is reminiscent of Sōten. Two hitsu ana. Late Edo period.

In pristine condition. Never mounted.

 

Now if it has never been mounted why is there fake sekigane?  I have seen these copies before and in other patterns and in various alloys and in iron, which must use different casting techniques?

The dot "inlay"[ten-zogan] is also not inlay at all and on the soft metal example why are the side walls of the nakago-ana curved-in unless they were cleaning the cast edges?

 

Well if you want a cast copy I would go for the alloy - at the least you won't have to worry about rust! 

 

[Exclus1ve]

7 часов назад Spartancrest сказал:

Now if it has never been mounted why is there fake sekigane?  I have seen these copies before and in other patterns and in various alloys and in iron, which must use different casting techniques?

The dot "inlay"[ten-zogan] is also not inlay at all and on the soft metal example why are the side walls of the nakago-ana curved-in unless they were cleaning the cast edges?

 

Well if you want a cast copy I would go for the alloy - at the least you won't have to worry about rust! 

 

There is no question that this is casting. But are all these copies made nowadays?

[Spartancrest]

Personally I think these are still "old" perhaps even antique - the criteria being they must be at least 100 years old to be classed as "antique" and many cast tsuba are indeed antique because there is a lot of evidence from museums on when they were added to their collections - less evidence on when exactly they were made unfortunately. 

[ROKUJURO]

Viktor,

as the methods have improved considerably, the really good quality copies/fakes are made recently. Making a master copy of an item with silicone is easy and results in very precise models. The so-called sand-casting has been refined, and surfaces are now almost perfect, so there is not much work on these TSUBA left to do except patinating.

There are a lot of MEIJI era (and later) copies of lesser quality on the market which are easier to spot in case you have developed an eye for it.