Could this design be done with a gold paint pen?

[John C]

Hello:

Let's see if I have gotten this right - to me, this looks like a molded iron piece that has had the sprue lines filed off then gold paint applied as a decoration. The arrow points to where I think the gold paint has flowed into the file marks. This is present in many places. I do not intend to buy this! Just trying to identify reproductions.

The tsuba can be viewed here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/335789558777

Thank you for all your help in identifying these issues during my learning process.

 

John C.

[Shugyosha]

Hi John,

Yes - the vine pattern looks really badly done and appears to be painted on rather than inlaid. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello John C.

So difficult to tell.

Hand forged or cast?

It looks like zogan has been applied to the leaves.

The gold paint looks fairly recent?

If it is cast, it was well done with the casting marks being filed off.

There are no seppa marks on the seppa-dia, and there is no sekigane in the nakago-ana.

The tagane-ato punch marks are not deep.

So I would tend to think that this tsuba has never been mounted on a blade tang.

Where is a cheap non-invasive metallurgical test for cast iron when you need it?

I don’t know, but my best guess is cast with an unknown period of manufacture (possibly very late Edo period or after).

 

[Geraint]

Dear John.

 

Research nunome zogan.

 

All the best.

[parfaitelumiere]

That's just average Nunome zogan,with typical cross pattern on iron.
There also are silver zogan on top and bottom, which has sulphurized and colonized the iron, it means that tsuba is probablu late edo.
But I don't understand why it should be a cast tsuba?!
On side picture you can see there are slight wear inside nakago ana, it has been  mounted, but I think the owner has cleaned a bit to raise the gold color and also cleaned seppa dai.
That is part of large collection, I missed another tsuba with a dragon from same seller, some are fake, but some are good stuff, that one with dragon was a very good one.
 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello patrice,

I base my opinion about this tsuba being cast iron primarily on the mimi view of the tsuba (shown below) from the ebay link shown above.

But I could very well be wrong, once again!

 

[Dereks]

Here we go again... @Dan tsuba

 

There is nothing that indicates this is a cast..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Dereks, 

Yes, here we go again!

It appears to me that they did not file down the mimi of the tsuba as well as they filed down the hitsu and nakago-ana.

The appearance of the mimi looks to have the small pebble type features of casting.

You have your opinion, and I have mine.

Then again, my opinion is based on photographic evidence.

What is your opinion based on?

[Iekatsu]

The Tsuba is not cast and a gold pen was not used to decorate it, it is just nunome zogan as Geraint pointed out.

[Dereks]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hey Dereks, 

Yes, here we go again!

It appears to me that they did not file down the mimi of the tsuba as well as they filed down the hitsu and nakago-ana.

The appearance of the mimi looks to have the small pebble type features of casting.

You have your opinion, and I have mine.

Then again, my opinion is based on photographic evidence.

What is your opinion based on?

 

There is no photographic evidence, only a photograph. We just have different perspectives because of our different levels of experience and knowledge.

[Dan tsuba]

Very well lekatsu, 

But this tsuba does raise some questions.

Refer to the initial post and pictures on this thread.

How did the nunome zogan appear in the file marks if it was not painted on?

Everyone is just stating opinions.

Show me pictures or state references how this was done.

Otherwise, everyone is just guessing once again!

I do not want to start or continue another downvote post for me!

Either state your references or show pictures.

I guess that is too much to ask!

Once again, I guess people just can't back up their opinions.

And once again, I will be out of here for a while!

[Iekatsu]

The file marks is how the gold is attached, it is pressed in to hold it in place. The file marks are visible because over time it has squashed in further and has worn. This is honestly really rudimentary stuff, there is no confusion here. 

[Dan tsuba]

lekatsu,

What did you not understand in my last post?

State references or show pictures so others can learn from your vast knowledge.

Otherwise, you are just stating opinions.

[Scogg]

 

 

I googled this for you Dan

 

[nulldevice]

Great video @GeorgeLuucas! I don't know much at all about tsuba but this was very informational!

[Scogg]

Thanks @nulldevice! 

Ford Hallam has some really incredible youtube videos. I also don't know much about tosogu, but watching his youtube channel is always informative. I should watch it more. He has a way of speaking while he works that's soothing and I always learn a lot. 

I recommend everyone check out his channel who's interested in fittings. 
May he rest in peace...
Cheers,
-Sam

[Brian]

Nothing indicating cast here, and the nunome is done as it always was. Agree with those above that say nothing wrong here.

[OceanoNox]

I like the tsuba. The only issue one could have is that the tagane marks were not completely removed after inlaying the gold wires.

 

Here are a few drawings explaining further the principle (for Higo zogan, but the same principle) (although Ford's videos are explained in much more detail). I think the pictures are clear enough that Japanese knowledge is not necessary.

https://plaza.rakute...o.jp/higokinko/2000/

[Shugyosha]

I'm sorry, but the tsuba in the OP looks nothing like nunome zogan to me, the essence of which is that it creates the appearance of a cloth-weave pattern (as indicated by the title 布目象嵌). There are striations in the metal, but in relation to the vine pattern, the gold is not pushed down into them but sits across them and does not appear to be done with the wire technique shown in the video above. I'm not sure what method was used to apply the gold, but in relation to the vine, it certainly looks like it could have been a Sharpie, though the flower might pass for Kaga zogan. Examples of nunome work below:

 

https://www.aoijapan...h-gold-nunome-inlay/

https://www.aoijapan...bon-matu-pine-trees/

https://www.aoijapan...ayuu-sasa-kumo-nami/

[OceanoNox]

The top right of the first photo uploaded by John shows some crossing lines. As I understand, the nunome pattern should be removed after adding the wires and foils. I wonder if the person who made this tsuba had difficulty in removing the lines (I have seen artisans use a burnisher to "blend in" the lines). At the same time, since the gold is on round surfaces, maybe it was difficult to make a clear cross pattern in the first place.

Regardless, in nunome zogan, the precious metal inlays are not completely flush with the iron surface. They are necessarily a bit proud. And you can get what is shown in the Aoi website links: the top surface of the inlay is removed, and gold remains in the grooves.

You can see in this other example that the gold wire is still a bit raised (from ~9:30):

 

As an aside, the modern fittings on my shinken for iai are all some kind of nunome zogan. Sometimes you can see the nunome pattern, sometimes not, but more importantly, because I use the sword regularly and it rusted, a lot of it has fallen off, pushed by iron oxide growing from below. I love the patterns that can be done, but I much prefer actual inlay.

[parfaitelumiere]

I suggest people here  to watch videos showing the processes, and if they can, experience it by themselves, it's very interesting to try it, as I did.
It can be useful to evaluate some works, know more about technic and appreciate the level, but also to possibly imagine the possibility of repair, or utsushi if required.

Here, the technic is wire gold nunome zogan, one quite coarse weave pattern, not the highest level indeed.

[Shugyosha]

@OceanoNox - An interesting video. I take your point, I had always assumed that the "woven cloth" description referred to the effect achieved at the end of the process rather than the method used to achieve it and that, given there are a variety of methods for achieving an inlaid effect, some other method than nunome zogan was used where it didn't have the weave effect. Certainly in the video you posted, the gold is left proud of the surface and there is none of the woven effect showing through it, also it shows how the gold is spread into and over the grooves and which would also account for the varying thickness of gold effect in the tsuba posted first up and which made me think it was not inlaid wire.

 

@JohnC - (and to others) - apologies, my error.

[ROKUJURO]

The correct terminology is often the key to a better understanding. It has been mentioned before, but I will underline it here:

 

There are no file-marks to be seen, it is (usually) a cross-hatched pattern made with a very sharp TAGANE. Gold or silver wire is punched (using a small TAGANE with a polished flat or very shallowly rounded tip) into this roughened surface where it sticks quite solidly. It is an ONLAY technique, not inlay.

As mentioned above, the exceeding cross-hatched pattern is usually flattened with a MIGAKI-BO (burnishing steel rod). In this case, that step was omitted which results in a decorative but probably not high-end TSUBA. 

No evidence needed, everybody interested can read about it or watch the related videos.

[parfaitelumiere]

Here is another, almost identical design, also on ebay.
You can see the nunome ground is also coarse and badly finished, and both birds have a bit different inlays, gold and silver.

[OceanoNox]

Leaves with dew drops maybe?

And this is why I think nunome is not so good for the long term, all the precious metal ends up somewhere else than the tsuba.