Help Authentic?

[dakodaa]

Hey I'm asking for help telling if this is authentic as i can't see an active hamon, and the rust seems bright indication that its a newer sword?

[Matsunoki]

Chinese fake. Sorry. 

[Brian]

Bad Chinese fake

[ROKUJURO]

On these photos, it does not look Japanese. Is the blade made of Damascus steel? Then that's off, as in fake.

[Brian]

7 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

On these photos, it does not look Japanese. Is the blade made of Damascus steel? Then that's off, as in fake.

Aside from the fake damascus pattern, it has acid etched characters on the blade. 110% Fake.
Oh, and the offset machi.

[ROKUJURO]

Ah Brian,

I did not even see that! Old eyes! But the MACHI do not align, and that is a solid giveaway as well.

[John C]

2 hours ago, dakodaa said:

asking for help

Emil:

In the pics below, I have noted the issues folks are talking about, for future reference, and to help you spot some common signs of a fake.

This first pic shows the acid etched logo, the Damascus pattern steel (not common in Japanese swords), and the misaligned machi (should be straight across).

The second pic shows the sharply cut and unrefined nakago jiri and the off angle of the nakago.

The third pic shows the overly sharp angle of the kissaki. Japanese swords are more elegant and refined. 

 

Hope this helps,

John C.

[dakodaa]

Thanks everybody
the acid etched i completely missed, if i had seen that i wouldn't have posted it.
and John C special thanks to you for clearly showing all the dead giveaways.

Thanks again
Emil K.

[Robert S]

4 hours ago, John C said:

This first pic shows the acid etched logo, the Damascus pattern steel (not common in Japanese swords), and the misaligned machi (should be straight across).

Am I correct in thinking that what you are pointing at with the phrase "Damascus pattern" is really pattern welded steel ( which definitely does get called damascus these days).  The old original Damascus steel from Europe/the Middle East was much more like Japanese nihonto steel, to my knowledge.

[ROKUJURO]

Robert,

there are basically 3 types of so-called Damascus steel. None of them was made or used in Japan for blades.

Let me explain:

The oldest type of forge-welded steel was made by Celtic people after 800 BC in Europe. It was accidentally made by forge-welding iron of different production places, so the natural content of impurities (Not alloys! These need a liquid state for their production!) like phosphorus could produce a random pattern on the surface when polished and etched with plant acids (tomato juice can act like an acid on carbon-steel).

Later, the Vikings became masters in deliberately combining different iron varieties to forge-weld repeatable pattern. Again, that was non-hardenable iron, so the famous Viking swords (look for Sutton Hoo) got a steel cutting edge fire-welded on for good combat performance.

What many call "true" Damascus steel came from India and Persia in the early middle ages and was traded to a great content via the old town of Damascus. This steel was made by melting the components at high temperatures in crucibles. It contained a high percentage of carbon (up to almost 2%) plus some secret minerals containing element like Vanadium and Molybdenum. These were necessary to help forming crystals (dendrites) in the steel while cooling. In a difficult process, this crucible Damascus steel (called Wootz in India or Bulat in Russia) was forged out in a lengthy process and when polished and etched, showed repeatable pattern (look for "Mohamed's ladder").

Our modern (industrially or hand-made) forge-welded steel (we should not use the term 'Damascus' for it, but it is too late...) is mostly a combination of high-carbon tool-steels each of which would make for a good cutting tool because of its properties. Most of the time, we combine steels that are promising a good contrast when polished and etched (Manganese containing steel and Nickel-alloyed steel are ideal). This will result in a strong silver/black contrast which we like.

In Japan, contrasting metals were used in MOKUME GANE (a soft-metal compound) for decorative purposes, but we also know layered combination (look for GURI BORI).

We also know MOKUME GANE (meaning is "looking like wood") made with iron. This is just a non-homogeneous mix of different varieties of iron (again not alloys). When etched, the surface reveals an interesting random pattern, sometimes looking like wood burl..

Japanese blades are made by folding and fire-welding ONE kind of carbon-steel on itself, so you don't get a contrast. What we see as HADA are the welding seams of the many different layers. I won't forget to mention HADA types that show a more defined pattern, caused by deliberately mixing in different steels, but they are rare.

For modern industrial Damascus steel, you can choose the different steel components depending on the properties you need. With actual technique and materials, it is rather easy to produce a cheap but decorative so-called Damascus steel which is what is mainly done in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and China (as far as I know, but there may be more in the meantime!). For a non-expert (to put it mildly), this looks impressive and expensive, and it serves well for just decorative purposes. 

But is is not Japanese.  

P.S. This is an abstract and not at all exhaustive

[KungFooey]

This is pattern welding - the alternating, twisted rods of iron and steel form very precise patterns - hence the name.

 

Dee

[Brian]

Except these are usually not damascus anyways, but an etched pattern.

[Cola]

While we are on the topic; what do you guys make of this sword for sale from tokyo nihonto:

https://tokyo-nihont...a-73-3cm-kizami-saya

 

I never saw such a clear pattern before, but the sword is unpapered; is this acid polishing?

[Matsunoki]

4 hours ago, KungFooey said:

This is pattern welding

That looks Anglo Saxon replica??? Sutton Hoo?

[Brian]

40 minutes ago, Cola said:

While we are on the topic; what do you guys make of this sword for sale from tokyo nihonto:

https://tokyo-nihont...a-73-3cm-kizami-saya

 

I never saw such a clear pattern before, but the sword is unpapered; is this acid polishing?

 

That is likely one of the smiths that experimented with adding Western steel in his mix, maybe with more nickel in it, leading to a high contrast hada.
There are a few smiths that played with that.
The seller is a member here, you could always ask him. @Seiko

[KungFooey]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

That looks Anglo Saxon replica??? Sutton Hoo?

Same time period - here's the Sutton Hoo pattern welding.

[Lewis B]

And the Vikings don't want to be left out. A pattern welded damascus-style Ulfbehrt

 

[ROKUJURO]

5 hours ago, Brian said:

Except these are usually not damascus anyways, but an etched pattern.

Brian,

this is a true replica, forged with the Anglo-Saxon method I described above. Of course the blade was etched as a last process, but "artificial Damascus" etched blades look differently and are easy to spot (for an expert)....

In their time period, these swords had an incredible value. They were owned only by the highest leaders and kings, and in terms of value, they can be compared with the best Japanese blades of their respective time.  

[Brian]

Jean, I'm talking about the original post...the Chinese sword. Those are almost never damascus...they are etched to look like damascus. Clearly shown by the way the characters are etched in with the pattern.
Yes...well aware of the others, having been a knife and sword collector for over 30 years.

[Matsunoki]

On 1/30/2025 at 10:09 PM, ROKUJURO said:

Again, that was non-hardenable iron, so the famous Viking swords (look for Sutton Hoo) got a steel cutting edge fire-welded on for good combat performance.

Sutton Hoo is not a Viking. It is Anglo Saxon ie the civilisation that developed when the Romans cleared off it and predates the arrival of the Vikings by a few centuries. We are learning much more about them with further archeological discoveries and turns out they had the pattern welding knowledge and ability…..probably brought over by the colonists from  Germany, the Netherlands etc (ie the “Saxons”). And probably merged with the forging technologies that the Romans undoubtedly left behind. The early dark ages aren’t quite as dark as we thought.

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you Colin!

When I realized my mistake it was too late to make a correction. As far as the "Anglos" are concerned, it is sometimes difficult to decide if they were from northern Germany or southern Scandinavia. In any case, these early "Damascus" artists on the "Tin Islands" were Anglo-Saxons.  

It is not completely known when exactly the Vikings developed their almost identical forging technique. It was probably around the same time as the Anglo-Saxons. However, quite soon, they ceased to forge Damascus steel when they found out that the Franks (their enemies) made better swords with improved refining methods.