What would this metal "defect" indicate?

[John C]

Hello:

Still trying to train my eye on these. Both defects are on the same tsuba. What would that type of defect indicate? 

 

Thank you,

John C.

[Hokke]

7 minutes ago, John C said:

Hello:

Still trying to train my eye on these. Both defects are on the same tsuba. What would that type of defect indicate? 

Looks to me like the wax used to cast this piece was not cleaned up with care

[MauroP]

Maybe a sanmai shitate (三枚仕立) tsuba?

[Dan tsuba]

This type of tsuba construction has been discussed before.

I refer you to the “An alternative way to construct a tsuba” (locked thread) and to the “Tsuba casting molds?” thread.

Those threads go against the status quo thinking, and the dollar bill profit  of selling tsuba today, of how tsuba could have been made.

Good luck trying to figure it out.

Let the downvotes come on!

Onward!

[ROKUJURO]

John,

as far as one can look into the HITSU, it is probably a SANMAI TSUBA as Mauro stated. As you are obviously able to make some good close-ups, let's have a better look into the HITSU and the NAKAGO-Ana. That should explain it.

[Hokke]

Wait a minute.....hold up

 

John C - Could you please give a bit more info on this piece please. When do you believe this was made and from what material? Has this been described as something other than a modern reproduction? 

[Dan tsuba]

Seeing as John C. is a Veteran status, I would assume he knows what he is talking about.

If it was a modern reproduction tsuba, I figure he would not post it for opinions.

Also, I would figure he is not certain of its construction.  That is why he is asking questions.

[Hokke]

24 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Seeing as John C. is a Veteran status, I would assume he knows what he is talking about.

If it was a modern reproduction tsuba, I figure he would not post it for opinions.

Also, I would figure he is not certain of its construction.  That is why he is asking questions.

Wow, assuming and figuring....ok, so then whats your point exactly, because you seem to KNOW very little on this particular item?  I dont know anything about John, I haven't been here long enough or interacted with him and thus would never presume his knowledge level, but I DO know a persons rank here is ZERO reflection on knowledge. A member could post exclusively in the izakaya and achieve a veteran rank. I am asking the questions because I am curious and genuinely want to know. I thought that was the whole point of a forum? Im not professing an expertise in this thread, where as you seem to have assumed and figured quite a lot. If the mei on a san mei tsuba presents as the one here, I would be very interested to know more, you know, to learn. You seem to be using this opportunity to press your baseless claims, which seems to me, to be the opposite of learning.

[Dan tsuba]

Okay KungFooey,

Off topic here,

But you seem to have a mean heart (my opinion).

 

Now to Hokke,

John C. never said anything about the mei on his tsuba.  He was asking about the contruction of the tsuba (the defect).

Let the hate continue, it shows me how limited your thinking is.

Onward!

[ROKUJURO]

13 minutes ago, Hokke said:

.....If the MEI on a san mei tsuba presents as the one here.......

Calabrese,

a SAN MAI TSUBA shows three (= SAN) layers in its construction. Often, the outer layers are thin SHAKUDO sheets with impressed decoration, the core is mostly copper. 

[Hokke]

4 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Okay KungFooey,

Off topic here,

But you seem to have a mean heart (my opinion).

 

Now to Hokke,

John C. never said anything about the mei on his tsuba.  He was asking about the contruction of the tsuba (the defect).

Let the hate continue, it shows me how limited your thinking is.

Onward!

I mentioned the mei not as a direct response to the question John asked, but as one of this features that led me to believe this item was cast, which is the opinion I gave initially. So when I asked John for additional info on this item it was with that in mind. If san mei tsuba present like the one pictured, I would have learned something, which brings us back to your participation here; what exactly is the purpose of it besides pushing your claims from other threads now locked? Have you asked ANYTHING from John by the way? Nope, only grounded in assuming and figuring things right?

Additionally, I made no inquiry as to the construction of this tsuba; I asked him from what it was made, as in composition. 

Lastly, I don't "hate" you......talk about "limited thinking" indeed. Can you even define hate intelligently or do you assume and figure the meaning of that word as well?

[Hokke]

16 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Calabrese,

a SAN MAI TSUBA has three (= SAN) layers.

Thank you Jean, i appreciate the expansion on terminology. Im familiar with san mei as a term, I was just unaware how it shows itself in tsuba construction. I have much to research on this method

[Toryu2020]

You guys will love this - from the pages of Tsuba: An Aesthetic Study - page 110 in the new edition available from the NCJSC

 

On the subject of the "Style of the Second (Akasaka) Tadamasa And later generations"

"The quality of the iron plate is not as good in the second generation. However, when Kawagane 皮鉄(skin iron) was applied to the surface the plate has a very pleasing appearance. There is a tendency for the folds of the plate to show the laminations quite clearly at the mimi."

 

No where else does he mention Kawagane - has anyone else encountered this term in relation to tsuba? I am familiar with its use in regards to swords and sword construction...

 

-t

[parfaitelumiere]

The hitsu ana seem to show some san mai structure.
I saw stamped sides san mai, where side material is a foil, rim and hitsu ana generally filled with material, or gold foiled or gilded, I also saw thicker type of san mai, to mimic plain shakudo formal tsuba style.
I owned such a daisho in the past, plain shakudo design, those probably also existed with some katakiri bori.
But yours seem to have quite thick plates, and the design looks like either cast or stamped, we can see from engraving, that would have been negative on matrix or metal plate, then stamped to get the positive result?!
The signature also looks suspicious, the way it's "stamped"
It would need more pictures.

 

[Hokke]

What bothers me about this tsuba is the mei. It is too uniform in depth and the edges to crisp. It does not look carved or chiseled. The other elements of the design I could see being the result of having hammered this plate into a patterned mold, but the mei.....i have problems with that one. I dont know if this was a test from John to see the opinions and thats why no further info has been provided, but as it stands, im sticking with cast repro, modern made. 

[ROKUJURO]

12 hours ago, Hokke said:

.....i appreciate the expansion on terminology. Im familiar with san mei as a term, I was just unaware how it shows itself in tsuba construction.....

Calabrese,

as I tried to explain, it is SAN MAI. It is not san mei and has nothing to do with MEI.

[John C]

Here is a better shot of the mei. Just to be clear, I don't own this tsuba so I'm relying on seller pics. This started as a learning exercise and discussion on metal defects to help me understand what I'm looking at. - I have no intention of buying it. But I do appreciate all the opinions.

 

John C.

[OceanoNox]

Rather than the hitsu ana defect, I am confused by the "dots" on the ji (I feel they would either be depressed, or look like nanako, but here, they are proud of the ji that has little hint of the use of tagane or punches), and the somewhat flared border of the nakago ana (especially beside the mei). Not being aware of the details of the sanmai process, it doesn't quite look handmade.

[Shugyosha]

11 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

You guys will love this - from the pages of Tsuba: An Aesthetic Study - page 110 in the new edition available from the NCJSC

 

On the subject of the "Style of the Second (Akasaka) Tadamasa And later generations"

"The quality of the iron plate is not as good in the second generation. However, when Kawagane 皮鉄(skin iron) was applied to the surface the plate has a very pleasing appearance. There is a tendency for the folds of the plate to show the laminations quite clearly at the mimi."

 

No where else does he mention Kawagane - has anyone else encountered this term in relation to tsuba? I am familiar with its use in regards to swords and sword construction...

 

-t

 

No, but it makes sense - kawagane for the two outer layers and shingane for the inside of the sandwich. I wonder whether there was a hidden crack(s) in the metal and a piece flaked off when it was hit by the punch used to create the textured ground? It looks like there are punch marks on the very edge of the pieces that have come away (if that is what has happened).

 

@OceanoNox - yes the ground does have an odd look to it, but it looks like there's enough crud in the hitsu ana to suggest it wasn't made recently?

[Brian]

To me it just looks like an outer layer of a thin non-ferrous sheet metal, that has been punched from behind to give a nanako type effect, soldered or applied to the center metal. Poorly done, the gaps are where the outside sheet metal didn't fill the whole tsuba.

[parfaitelumiere]

I don't think so, the material is too thick to get this result just by reverse punching, as done on old san mai tsuba.
The details are too neat, that type of engraving is typically negative engraving, thzn stamping or casting will bring positive result, same used in coin and medal making.

The mei is even worse now, and nakago ana also wrong, seppa dai is also awful.
I remember having worked on Japanese iaito parts, and that double color on copper based replicas is visible, when you start grinding the material, I did this on menuki and fuchi kashira, it looks like heavily plated, maybe filled, and having a kind of brass core, I remember the reddish outside layer got more yellow once you grind deep enough, maybe that tsuba has been made from 3 pieces of metal, then stamped to obtain de relief carving, and then the holes are punched and core metal would become visible.
Some modern fittings process are cast from original, modern made or antique, so the apparent carving is similar to real tosogu carving process, but some other kind definitely show negative carving, which appears as positive carving, that type of result can't be obtained using direct carving process.
It would be interesting to see the whole tsuba, and start searching for similar references on the market, that should bring some clues, but I remember having seen such similar result, kind of copper based tsuba, with 2 dragons, round shape, and same making process, stamped, like a coin or medal.

[Scogg]

Hi John,

I can't speak to the layering, construction, or mei. But, in my opinion, this is a good example of what not to look for in NANAKO. And it was the first thing I noticed. 

Quality nanako will look almost impossibly precise, and be evenly applied. Whereas the tsuba in your photo looks like the nanako dots are randomly scattered without any pattern. 

Image of shakudo nanako fuchi from my collection. 
All the best,
-Sam

 

[John C]

Sam:

Agreed. I do leather working and the pattern reminds me of a 4 dot stamp known as a "backgrounder" randomly applied from the reverse side.

 

John C.

[ROKUJURO]

I think I understand what Patrice is saying. I was also puzzled by the appearance of the decoration on the above TSUBA as it does not look typical as punched out from the backside. Usually, SAN MAI TSUBA have a rather shallow decoration, and even repoussée technique looks a bit different. 

I would really like to see this TSUBA from close but as this is not possible, I again suggest to post more photos.

I suspect that there is a non-traditional technique involved that I don't remember to have seen before. If so, front and backside were probably formed on a steel die-stamp and fixed on the core plate. It is a possibility, not more, and would imply that the TSUBA is a recent production.  

[Hokke]

8 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Calabrese,

as I tried to explain, it is SAN MAI. It is not san mei and has nothing to do with MEI.

yes Jean, you are correct, my eye missed it so I now understand the confusion. i was dealing with two terms and misspelling one of them. What I meant to write (without the misspelling) was: Thank you Jean, i appreciate the expansion on terminology. Im familiar with san mai as a term, I was just unaware how it shows itself in tsuba construction.

 

That said, the mei is visible on the tsuba, and that is what I was calling attention to. The depth and angular presentation of the mei is (for me) consistent with casting. It was not carved with a chisel. if this tsuba were hammered into a mold, the edges of the mei would show rounding on the edge and not be so crisp. 

 

Sorry for the confusion

[ROKUJURO]

Calabrese,

concerning the MEI, I absolutely share your opinion that it is odd.

[John C]

These are the only other pics. The seller did not take very many. 

 

John C.

[ROKUJURO]

It is a new IAITO TSUBA in my eyes, what ever it is made of and how, but I bet it is not by a traditional method.

[KungFooey]

So the supposed 'nanako' is forming a repeated wave pattern.

[Jesta]

The nanako is definitely not high quality to my eye. The wave patterns look messy, and the nanako seems to be of varied sizes. I would be very surprised if this was hand-punched. My best guess is a separate sheet over a core: san-mai.

 

This is what I would expect good quality nanako to look like (shared elsewhere).