Restoration of late Edo brass Tsuba.

[2devnul]

Hi everyone,

 

I have this nice late Edo, Mokko Gata, brass Tsuba sitting on my Nihonto. I was thinking about restoring it so it can shine again. For now I was just rubbing it with clean cloth, which is already giving some results. However, I was thinking about using some chemicals on it, in order to speed the process. Is that a good idea? I know there are chemicals used in brass restoration, but I decided to ask Tsuba experts about the idea. 

 

I will appreciate any advices/comments. Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Adam, generally speaking soft metal pieces look far better with their intended subdued and specially applied patina which is definitely not bright and shiny. I would stop now if I were you. I would be researching correct ways to calm it down rather than shine it up. 

[Alex A]

Seriously Adam, nothing worse than when folks shine up antique brass, like on tsuba and gun barrels etc.

[2devnul]

Thanks for quick replies. So in other words, I have a stupid idea and should leave it as it is? 

[Alex A]

Not a stupid idea, its just what folks do, shine up brass.

 

Though with antiques, should have a natural patina.

 

 

[vajo]

It is not restoring removing the patination. Its vandalism.

[kissakai]

Look for a tsuba restorer for a repatination but the cost may be more than the tsuba is worth

 

[2devnul]

Hi,

Thanks for pointing me to right direction. In other words, remove dust, leave patina, got it!

 

 

[Alex A]

Have to say this, as much as i think most people would prefer a natural patina on brass. There are some people, maybe a tiny minority, don't know, that actually prefer their antique brass objects to be shiny.

 

Bought a little old brass cannon not so long ago and someone has polished it, cant wait to get it back to how it should look. A patina on brass can actually be quite darkish. sometimes even like bronze. Only have to look at some old brass door fittings,

[Matsunoki]

4 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Bought a little old brass cannon not so long ago and someone has polished it, cant wait to get it back to how it should look.

True Alex. I’ve seen pieces where literally £thousands have been knocked of the value of great Japanese metalwork by some uninformed owner spending hours cleaning off the original patina. I used to pay Ford to put it all back on again! Used to drive me nuts the things people do. 

[Brian]

Have you considered that this isn't brass, but shakudo? I mean without any patina, that's what it looks like. It's unusual to find plain brass tsuba.
I'm all for patination. I think polished brass looks less than pleasant on an antique. At the very least, I'd patina it with ammonia fumes IF it's just brass. But something tells me it isn't.

[2devnul]

@Brian

It looks like brass to me. Isn't it to 'gold' for Shakudo? I have seen Shakudo (and own a Tsuba with Shakudo rant) in past and it was anthracite-black, not golden like this one. Wasn't I aware of this specific Shakudo-gold-type/version? Here are some pics of Tsuba, I can share some more pictures (remove it from sword) if needed. 

 

Thanks all for letting me know that patina is something desired. I never removed any patina from iron Tsuba, but though that brass is a different story. 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Concerning the difference between Ōdō 黄銅 and Shinchū 真鍮, an artisan friend in Osafune commented that my tsuba was Ōdō. (Posted once before, but pic follows) The difference lies in the metals forming the alloy with copper.

https://study-z.net/100190152

 

 

[Brian]

Shakudo is bronze colored until it is patinated. It's mainly copper with some gold. Hard to tell copper apart from brass sometimes when it's polished.

 

[vajo]

Brass in Japan isn't the same brass with fixed mixture in the west. Those shibuichi brass have niage patinations in a wide range of colors from greenish to brown and red, from bright to dark. It depends what the artist wanted to show.

[2devnul]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Shakudo is bronze colored until it is patinated. It's mainly copper with some gold. Hard to tell copper apart from brass sometimes when it's polished.

 

 

Wouldn't it (Shakudo) be to soft for Tsuba? IMHO it is brass, but now I can't tell for sure ...

 

This is the Shakudo I know (black rim of Tsuba):

[Matsunoki]

8 minutes ago, 2devnul said:

Wouldn't it (Shakudo) be to soft for Tsuba?

Thousands of tsuba are made from shakudo. Generally the quality is pretty good because it is an expensive alloy to use. Beware patination that looks like shakudo but isn’t (Nagoya mono spring to mind!)

[Robert S]

12 hours ago, 2devnul said:

@Brian

It looks like brass to me. Isn't it to 'gold' for Shakudo? I have seen Shakudo (and own a Tsuba with Shakudo rant) in past and it was anthracite-black, not golden like this one. Wasn't I aware of this specific Shakudo-gold-type/version? Here are some pics of Tsuba, I can share some more pictures (remove it from sword) if needed. 

 

Thanks all for letting me know that patina is something desired. I never removed any patina from iron Tsuba, but though that brass is a different story. 

 

 

Shakudo when it loses its patina due to wear is bronze/copper colored, in my experience.  This is distinctly brassy looking.  Although there are a lot of different bronze and brass chemistries, this looks to lean on the brass side.

[parfaitelumiere]

It would need much better quality pictures to know which exact alloy it is.
It looks yellowish, but not that much yellowish of the brass material, any material will look yellow, compared to pure copper sekigane.
It's's definitely not shibuichi, as shibuichi is quite easy to recognize, even unpatinated, but it can be various copper based alloy, including shakudo.
I have the materials for rokusho patina, which I didn't not intend yet, if you want, after I successfully make a patina of pieces I made, I can do same on your tsuba, it will be a way to know what exact material it's made from.

I don't recommend ammonia fumes, especially if not used to do patination, that can bring terrible results and some damages, I experimented this a bit much farther than common patination, in another domain ( fictive universe antiques, star wars and stargate "historical" artifacts).

[FlorianB]

Is the shiny surface a plating? The inner sides of the sukashi look like another material iron or oxidized copper.

[2devnul]

Thank you all for your feedback, much appreciated. 

 

Now I'm really interested in getting to the bottom of it and finding what material it is. When I have time I will disassemble Tsuba from the sword and make some more/detailed pictures, including inner sides. Maybe that can help to pinpoint what it is. 

[Matsunoki]

15 hours ago, parfaitelumiere said:

It would need much better quality pictures to know which exact alloy it is.

I doubt any image will tell you what it is. The Japanese used a huge number of different alloys often personalised by the artist making small adjustments to one of the many standard  formulas. 
I also doubt this tsuba is plated…why bother? Much simpler to make it out of a homogeneous alloy.

I don’t think this shakudo…..that is usually much more of a noticeable copper colour. 
I’d settle for a sentoku alloy of some type ie a variety of what we generically call bronze. 
The only way to be sure is to take it to someone with an XRF analyser.

[parfaitelumiere]

You are right, without analyser, no way to know for sure.

[ROKUJURO]

On 1/29/2025 at 10:22 PM, Robert S said:

Shakudo when it loses its patina due to wear is bronze/copper colored, in my experience.  This is distinctly brassy looking.  Although there are a lot of different bronze and brass chemistries, this looks to lean on the brass side.

If I may correct some opinions: Bronze is a copper-tin alloy with basically a 'gold' colour, depending on the copper content. It is not much used in TOSOGU with the exception of KAGAMISHI TSUBA.

Copper has a reddish colour, brass (a copper-zinc alloy) has a gold colour, especially when polished.

When patinated, these alloys can have a very wide range of colours.

[Bugyotsuji]

One extra comment. The quality and tight consistency of the material of the initial tsuba in this thread has the same feeling to me as the Shinchu lockwork on many Tanegashima matchlocks. Such shinchu was highly valued at the time.

[vajo]

Some "Brass" Tsuba examples and their patination colors.

 

 

[2devnul]

Hi, thanks for replies guys. As promised I will try to take some more detailed pictures when I have time for it. 

To be honest, mine looks like brass without patina, although it isn't polished but still much more shiny. Maybe it is Shakudo with high gold proportion (I wish!), or it can be any other type of alloy. I need to check what type of 'golden-alloy' was used. Maybe it is also some kind of plating, hard to say. 

[parfaitelumiere]

It won't be shakudo, high gold shakudo won't have such a color when not patinated, it lools like copper, just not as red, but won't look that yellow.
Following some comments here, the more logical choice will be brass, the patina with warm tones is really nice, exactly what I was thinking about!
I am looking forward to move to new appartment and get workshop, so I can try rokusho patination, I never tried yet, but I have a set of fuchi-kashira and tsuba to finish.