1892 Type 25 survey assistance needed

[John C]

Hello:

I'm tracking the serial numbers and inspection marks on type 25s and I have exhausted my available resources (Internet, Dawson, and F&G). So far, I have come across a total of only 27 different swords! I would appreciate help in finding more. If anyone has a type 25 not listed below, please attach a pic of the serial number and the inspection stamps. I would really appreciate it.

List of known serial numbers:

325, 575, 1539, 1996, 2379, 3397, 3587, 4077, 5578, 5988, 6251, 6784, 8170, 8572, 10781, 11448, 13121, 13197, 14013, 14323, 14408, 15383, 15773, 16019, 16065, 16416, Unk serial number sold on Worthpoint.

 

Brief history of the type 25 from Nick Komiya:

https://www.warrelic...avalry-gunto-781783/

 

Thank you very much for taking a look,

John C.

 

[Scogg]

I’ve been intrigued by these swords too, the one I’ve encountered was pretty sturdy and cool. 
 

I am surprised I’m the first to chime in, but you might get more traction in the military swords of Japan section. 
 

While I continue cataloging Type 95s, I’ll keep an eye out for you 

Cheers,

-Sam

[Conway S]

John, 

 

Here is the one I currently have. I don't keep any records of serial numbers, but I would say what makes them difficult to research online is that many people don't know these are a distinct model so some examples get labeled online as just NCO, cavalry, or Type 32s. 

 

I also think you should ask Brian to repost this thread in the military section for better visibility.  

 

Conway 

 

 

 

[John C]

1 hour ago, Conway S said:

Here is the one I currently have. I don't keep any records of serial numbers, but I would say what makes them difficult to research online is that many people don't know these are a distinct model so some examples get labeled online as just NCO, cavalry, or Type 32s

Thank you for the serial number, and I agree that some folks may not understand the nomenclature. I have widened my search and haven't seen anything new yet.

@Brian Could you please move this to Military swords? I used the wrong forum.

John C.

[Kiipu]

I have three that I do not see on your list.  Below is all the information I have which is coming via text (no pictures).

 

Blade # 2522, no arsenal logo, scabbard # 2522, yahoo.co.jp.

Blade # 9090, scabbard # 8170, private collection.

Blade # 9777, no other information, private collection.

 

Hope this helps.

[Kiipu]

On 1/26/2025 at 2:27 PM, Conway S said:

Here is the one I currently have.

 

 

Conway, when time permits, can you answer the following questions about 9536.

1. Does it have an arsenal logo on the crossguard?

2. What is the scabbard's serial number?

3. Does it have a leather finger loop?

[Kiipu]

John, below is the proper name for this sword.  There is no Type in the name.  Oddly enough, within a year or two, type was introduced, as in Type 26 Revolver!

明治二五年騎兵刀 = Meiji 25th Year Cavalry Sword = 1892 Cavalry Sword.

[Conway S]

Thomas, 

 

The scabbard is matching.  It does not have an arsenal stamp on the guard, which corroborates the warrelics EU article stating that the arsenal marks appear in the higher serial number ranges. The hole for the finger loop is present, but the leather and fastener are missing. It does have the typical sharpened cutting edge. 

 

Conway

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 1/26/2025 at 9:40 AM, John C said:

Hello:

I'm tracking the serial numbers and inspection marks on type 25s and I have exhausted my available resources (Internet, Dawson, and F&G). So far, I have come across a total of only 27 different swords! I would appreciate help in finding more. If anyone has a type 25 not listed below, please attach a pic of the serial number and the inspection stamps. I would really appreciate it.

List of known serial numbers:

325, 575, 1539, 1996, 2379, 3397, 3587, 4077, 5578, 5988, 6251, 6784, 8170, 8572, 10781, 11448, 13121, 13197, 14013, 14323, 14408, 15383, 15773, 16019, 16065, 16416, Unk serial number sold on Worthpoint.

 

Brief history of the type 25 from Nick Komiya:

https://www.warrelic...avalry-gunto-781783/

 

Thank you very much for taking a look,

John C.

 

#487（mine) &11871(eBay）

 

 

 

[John C]

Thank you Trystan. These are helping to establish some patterns.

 

John C.

[John C]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Blade # 9090, scabbard # 8170, private collection.

Thomas:

Note that the 8170 scabbard for this blade matches the 8170 serial number (presumably a blade) listed in Dawson, pg 116.

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

John, I rechecked my correspondence and this is what I have for you.  The correspondent had seen eight Meiji 25s over a period of 15 years.  He noted the scabbard numbers when possible.

 

Letter dated 1999-0215

1) 5578 (scabbard # 3954).

2) 9090 (scabbard # 8170).

3) 16065 (scabbard # 6609).

4) 10781 (scabbard # 13454).

5) 14408 (blade & scabbard no's match).

6) 575 (no scabbard # reported).

7) 9777 (no scabbard # reported).

 

Letter dated 1999-0307

Blade serial number 325 that still had the leather finger loop on the D. guard.  [This was the only one that he had seen with a finger loop still existing.]

 

In summary, only one sword still had matching numbers and another sword still had an intact finger loop.  No blade inspection marks were reported nor did I ask for them.

[drb 1643]

I have 4077 with fingerloop although it has a leather repair. Attached are photos.

Tom

[drb 1643]

The saya is a mismatch.

Tom

[John C]

3 hours ago, drb 1643 said:

I have 4077

Tom:

Thank you and congrats. You have one listed in Dawson pg. 116. I will update my chart with your cite.

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

2) 9090 (scabbard # 8170).

 

John, I think the numbers got transposed as Dawson does not have 9090 recorded.  My information is coming from the same source he used.  For this reason, I am not sure on which end the mistake was made.  His letter to me is as I stated above.

[John C]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

6) 575 (no scabbard # reported).

Thank you for the scabbard numbers. These are listed in Dawson pg. 116 as blades only. 

Note: I may have the scabbard for 575 on my blade. There could be part of a 9 in front of the 5, however even under a loupe it's difficult to see.

 

John C.

[John C]

4 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

His letter to me is as I stated above.

I'll asterisk the two for now with a note and see if any confirmation pops up in later searches. But thank you very much for the research.

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

On 1/27/2025 at 6:17 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

#487 (mine)

 

Trystan, some questions about serial number 487 with the 篠 inspection mark.

 

1. Does the crossguard have an arsenal logo?

2. Is there a hole for a rivet & finger loop in the crossguard?  Is the hole filled?

3. What is the serial number of the scabbard?

[BANGBANGSAN]

15 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Trystan, some questions about serial number 487 with the 篠 inspection mark.

 

1. Does the crossguard have an arsenal logo?

2. Is there a hole for a rivet & finger loop in the crossguard?  Is the hole filled?

3. What is the serial number of the scabbard?

Thomas

I can't answer questions #1 and #3 until a few months later since the sword is in FL and not with me.

It has the rivet and finger loop in the crossguard unfilled and has partial leather remaining.

 

[John C]

Thanks to everyone's input, we are up to 35 known examples! So far, I think it's the most complete list out there (though not speaking Japanese, I can't be certain how many other lists survive somewhere else). In addition, patterns are starting to emerge suggesting which inspectors were working at which time and when inspector stamp placement started to change. As of yet, however, I have not been able to translate the seal scripts to get a sense of inspector names. Still researching that part.

Here is the updated serial number list:

 

325, 487, 575, 1539, 1996, 2379, 2522, 3397, 3587, 4077, 4429, 5578, 5988, 6251, 6784, 8170, 8572, 8782, 9090, 9536, 9777, 10781, 11448, 11871, 13121, 13197, 14013, 14323, 14408, 15383, 15773, 16019, 16065, 16416, Unk serial number sold on Worthpoint. (35 as of 1-31-25)

 

Again, I appreciate all the input for this project.

 

John C.

[PacificRim]

This is mine, 10123

[PacificRim]

[John C]

3 hours ago, PacificRim said:

This is mine, 10123

Sweet! That's excellent. Number 36 on the list. I am currently in the process of translating the inspector marks.

Thank you very much,

John C.

[Conway S]

John, 

 

Here are two helpful sites for identifying seal script:

 

List of Shuowen Jiezi radicals

 

Japanese Seals

 

The second site will generate the seal script if you input a character. 

 

Conway 

[John C]

Thank you, Conway. I've actually combed through dozens of seal script charts and web sites and read through Markus Sesko's book on seal scripts. So far, I have only found a few direct matches to the radicals in the scripts. I think they used their own version of the radical rather than a standard, in some cases (I even checked the Chinese versions). Another issue is that when I do decipher a seal script and find the corresponding kanji, I still can't read the meaning (see the Translation section for an example).

 

John C.