difficult hobby

[martialarts]

I have been thinking about collecting my own tsubas .  I have read a few of the threads here.

It all seems very complicated.  It is not like coin collecting or stamp collecting.  I have read where museums could be wrong.  I have read where the NVTHK could be wrong.  I have read where members who thought they were right were told they are wrong.

If I have a question about tsubas, who is the final authority.

I guess that this is not an easy hobby to get involved in.

I think maybe I will stay with coin and stamp collecting where there seems to be more absolutenes.

But I have been looking at tsubas on EBay.

[Ray Singer]

The last thing that I would want to do is discourage an incoming new enthusiast, so please don't take this in a discouraging way, however there is no final authority who can give an answer that conveys absolute truth. If a piece is not signed, then there is always some degree of uncertainty on an attribution. In the sword world, there are attributions which change from one level of paperwork to another. With fittings and swords both, there is some degree of bucketing where an item may receive a safe attribution if the answer is not entirely clear. Collecting Japanese swords and fittings needs to come with some acceptance of the fact that there may be no absolutes and that sometimes it's enough to own a masterfully made object even if you'll never know with certainty who made it.

[Ray Singer]

While this article does not specifically refer to tsuba, the truth holds. 

 

https://web.archive..../20-go-80-norishige/

 

[Steve Waszak]

I would echo Ray's excellent words here.  The pursuit of studying and collecting nihonto and tosogu essentially necessitates some degree of comfort with what I call "living with the question."  There is relatively little certainty in our pursuit; even in many cases with signed works, we can not be sure of the genuineness of a mei, or perhaps the generation of the maker when several generations used the same name to sign with.  As with many or most fields, too, seasoned, experienced scholars and other experts can look at the same object or mei and reach different conclusions, disagreeing with one another slightly, or even dramatically.  It is inherent in this field that such will be the case oftentimes.  If one is uncomfortable with the lack of certainty that is so prevalent, then another collecting focus becomes more inviting.  However, I would encourage new enthusiasts to experiment with living with questions, setting aside the "need to know," and in the meantime, enjoying the journey of learning and of appreciating the incredible objects that come before us.  

[Jesta]

My own take is that you can collect for aesthetic reasons first. It remains important to me to collect pieces that are authentic, but I am less worried about being able to attribute each one to a specific school/maker/time etc.

You can also look at this hobby as one that you will always have something to ask, you will never end up feeling like you have finished, which is something that I personally appreciate. 

Every collector of the arts has to contend with the fact that people have been forging stuff since the beginning of collecting. So, get to know the stuff you like, and accept that some of your collection will be questioned from time to time. 

[martialarts]

Thanks for all the posts.

But maybe I will just keep looking for that 1909 S VDB penny.  Or maybe look on EBay for a tsuba.

I don't know which to collect.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

If you want more certainty, you can formulate a set of rules for yourself, such as (somewhat like coins) only buying tsuba with NBTHK certification papers attached. At least until you feel comfortable with your own eye.

[cluckdaddy76]

I am a newer collector, and I can tell you the approach I took before purchasing any on my own. I will say that my first pieces came to me all at once in the form of a lifelong debt repayment, so I did have something in hand to study at first. But in my opinion if buying online, having some in hand only helps a bit. If yopu were alwyas shopping live for tsuba, then some in hand would help more.

First thing that was actually useful was I came on here and listened to many people simply say, study first. So I did, starting with a couple books suggested here. Reach out to Grey Doffin on his website, he usually has a huge selection. Then I made sure to have a large enough screen and high-resolution monitor and went online. I started first with the links and dealer section located here and would actually look at them all. Next step was to go to the auctions online and start looking at activity there, especially items people were actually bidding on at the time. But I would also take time to look at everything online, because in the beginning it is just as important to learn what the reproductions and junk/fakes look like too. For me, once I had been doing this regularly for a number of months (mind you I did not buy my own tsuba  until close to two years of looking/studying) I realized I had definitely learned a lot. Once you see enough nice authentic tsuba many fakes will jump right out. The really bad one's with minimal studying are pretty easy to pick out once you know what to look for such as casting lines, injection molding sites, a seam in the middle of the tsuba etc. Then the reproductions start to get better.

With softer metal tsuba, study the colors of the various metals used on legitimate antiques first. Then go look at some Ebay reproductions (or auction site of your choice, Jauce may be even better than Ebay) and look at theirs. Continue this practice and I think you will be happy with the results. I am guessing from your original post you do plan on using auction sites, so here are a couple tips just for auction sites once you have some knowledge and can at least differentiate many of the fakes. If you find a tsuba for sale from a seller you are not sure about as there are one's very tough to tell, go look at what else this seller has to offer. If you go to their page and realize it looks like all of their other pieces are modern repro's , get the piece you were looking from them out of your thoughts. The probability of them having one real piece while the rest is garbage is very low in my opinion. This can be tricky if the seller only has one tsuba, but if they had other items take a look at those and decide what type of seller this person appears to be.

Next piece of advice is this, just because multiple people are bidding on an item, it does not mean it is good. The site Liveauctioneers.com have many auction houses for example, but many have no idea what they even have and many list reproductions at ridiculous prices. I don't know how many times I wish there was a way to insert comments in the middle of bidding when I see people overpaying and battling it out for some hunk of crap. But even with all this, mistakes can still be made. Sukashi iron tsuba fakes are among some of the harder ones to decipher in my opinion. I feel the only "downfall" which is really a bad thing when you do a bunch of studying is that I have become much pickier about the quality of what I will purchase compared to what I thought was good quality when I first started.

Do not be frightened by the hobby, if you can take some time to study, I think you will enjoy it. I do believe my studying at first definitely saved me from what I would now consider mistakes, including spending money on legitimate older pieces in poor condition or not particularly desirable pieces to study except for the fact they are actually old. Good luck and I hope this helps and gives you some encouragement. 

 

Jason 

[Jack Zacao]

I agree with Jesta. You collect for the art first, investment reasons are the last. This is a difficult hobby indeed. To begin, I would suggest read a number of books on museum collections or auction catalogs from known auction houses such as Christie’s or bonhams. Some books on Chinese paintings and calligraphy also very helpful. As a beginner, I would not recommend buying from eBay, unless you have confidence with your knowledge and judgment about the authenticity of the piece. You can start from buying from reputable dealers or auction houses first.

 

to me, coins were stamped or casted in large quantities, they can not be compared with the sword fittings that are hand made and unique in every piece.

[1kinko]

Go to a sword show. There's nothing better than holding tosogu and examining it with a magnifying device and talking with the sellers and other buyers.

[KungFooey]

7 hours ago, martialarts said:

Thanks for all the posts.

But maybe I will just keep looking for that 1909 S VDB penny.  Or maybe look on EBay for a tsuba.

I don't know which to collect.

 

Hi,

 

I'm probably going to get downvoted for this - but hey, I'm used to that by now.

 

My own personal feeling is that, if you're coming on this forum trying to find justification for starting a new hobby or vindication as to why you should collect something, then you probably don't have enough of an interest in the subject in the first place.

I'd stick with stamps if I were you - it sounds like you already have knowledge in that field and it will save you some very costly mistakes (I speak from experience).

[Shugyosha]

Hi Jacob,

I’m going to contradict Dee and hope to not get flamed. 😳 If you’re going to eat an elephant, you can’t do it in a single sitting. You don’t have to commit full-on to this, you can hang around, learn some stuff and take whatever routes your interest leads you down.
 

It isn’t necessary to buy stuff to be interested in the subject and learn about it and it’s probably better that you don’t for a while. It may seem pretty daunting now, given what looks like an enormous task, but none of us know everything and most of us (me) even after a number of years, only know a little and I certainly display my ignorance here fairly regularly. So I’d say, drop in as often as you like,  have a bite of the elephant and see what happens. 

[ROKUJURO]

8 hours ago, martialarts said:

......But maybe I will just keep looking for that 1909 S VDB penny. .......

Jacob,

and then, looking with a microscope, you find a tiny damage which makes your stamp fall through in value. Or you purchase an old coin after having seen a good photo of it, and when receiving it, you realized that it was well used over the centuries.....

The world is not always that easy! 

You will have to decide what speaks to you. Is it the potential value of an object or the aesthetics of a handmade item? 

What about collecting stone age tools? No fake signatures, datable with a span of a few thousand years.....

[DirkO]

About collecting in this field I think this is a must read (by Guido Schiller):

Collecting.pdf

[martialarts]

Good posts and good information.  Thnks for the help.

[parfaitelumiere]

I would say to train your eyes and your feelings and collect what will bring you joy.
My approach is based on aesthetical and technical details, is it well made, hard to make, well preserved, signatures or certificates have no real importance to me, the way it's made is much more important.
For now, I got a few pieces in collection, the good prices I obtained when I sold them, quite easily, seems to be a proof of a not-too-bad taste and method I applied for my purchases.
I think as many here said, browse, look at close up pictures, you can also watch videos of utsushi tsuba, to learn about the technics, and understand how it can be hard to master them, making the items a first class, second class or low grade item, just by looking at how it's made.

[martialarts]

How close to an actual year can tsubas be figured to be made.

If there is nothing on a tsuba that tells me who made it, and I know they don’t have a year stamped on them like a coin, how can I narrow it down.

Can I get close to a 50-year period.  A 100-year period.  Longer.  Or it can’t be figured out for sure.

I think I will try to find a good book to begin with about tsubas.

 

[Geraint]

Dear Jacob.

 

Welcome to NMB.  Here is a little something to get you started. https://shibuiswords.com/tsuba.htm  and when you are ready for more have a look here, https://japaneseswordbooksandtsuba.com/

 

All the best.

 

[martialarts]

Thaks for the info Geraint.

My friend is sending me a book Tsuba Collecting for the Beginner by D R Raisbeck.  He says it is really good, and told me the same author has written lots of other stuff with good information if I want to buy the books.

Maybe looking for my first tsuba on EBay.

[Soshin]

@martialarts Jacob, I would try to pace yourself in your study as @Shugyosha John J., suggests. Understand more about Japan and its language, history, and culture give you a broader and deeper context to your study of tsuba.  Also check out my website here: Tsuba Otaku | Reflections of a Not So Empty Mind. It is noncommercial and full of lots of free information (no ads) about Japanese sword fittings and other types of Japanese art. I also try including a good list of other websites that you might also find helpful and some photos of my many vacations to Japan. Enjoy.   

[Bazza]

Jacob, welcome to the Board.  The following thread is now 7 years old, but I still find it a good now-and-then read, with pointed discussions and recommended reading:

Best regards,

BaZZa.

 

[Curran]

1 hour ago, Bazza said:

Jacob, welcome to the Board.  The following thread is now 7 years old, but I still find it a good now-and-then read, with pointed discussions and recommended reading:

Best regards,

BaZZa.

 

 

Too many Good_Men_Gone in that thread. 

Even Arnold_F, who I often disagreed with on most everything economic or tosogu.

[martialarts]

Bazza (Barry) thanks for the thread.

I have read it, but I think it is way over my head.

I saw some tsubas on EBay.  The first one I like because of the weird fish type stuff.  I am sure that design has some meaning.

The other one looks to have birds on it.

Are these something that I should think about getting.

 

 

[KungFooey]

Lesson number one (just to show there's no hard feelings with my first comment).

 

IMHO, those two examples both look cast to me.

I was looking at the fish one myself (as it's a favourite theme of mine) but, if you look closely, there appear to be unfiled edges around the inside of the carving and the main design itself does not look very crisp. it also has a crude, modern lead insert at the top of the center hole (the nekago ana) - usually, these are copper and filed to fit a particular tsuba. The second tsuba has a sandy texture to its surface which is often a sign of sandcasting.

 

As I said before, I speak from experience - only recently I bought an obviously cast tsuba (luckily for peanuts).

 

All the best if you do decide to pursue this hobby - and this is definitely the forum to seek help (I do, virtually every day)!

 

Dee

[ROKUJURO]

Jacob,

as long as you are in the first steps, E-Bay is a dangerous place. Lots of fake or copied TSUBA (NO plural 'S') are waiting for the non-suspecting newbie collectors.

The photos are not good enough to be sure that you are not buying a cheap cast copy. The first item shows SHACHI dragon-fish, but I am not sure about the TSUBA's quality.

The second TSUBA has irises as theme; it might be o.k. but I would need to inspect it in hand to be sure.

There are reliable sellers and collectors here on NMB - have a look at the sales page! 

[martialarts]

Dee and Jean,

Well, I won’t buy those tsuba (not tsubas – Jean)

I will keep looking and if I find something I will ask for help.

But I think this hobby will be to expensive and cost me to much.

So maybe I will stick with coin and stamp collecting.

[Brian]

10 hours ago, martialarts said:

Thaks for the info Geraint.

My friend is sending me a book Tsuba Collecting for the Beginner by D R Raisbeck.  He says it is really good, and told me the same author has written lots of other stuff with good information if I want to buy the books.

 

 

That's by our own @Spartancrest

[Jake6500]

15 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Jacob,

as long as you are in the first steps, E-Bay is a dangerous place. Lots of fake or copied TSUBA (NO plural 'S') are waiting for the non-suspecting newbie collectors.

The photos are not good enough to be sure that you are not buying a cheap cast copy. The first item shows SHACHI dragon-fish, but I am not sure about the TSUBA's quality.

The second TSUBA has irises as theme; it might be o.k. but I would need to inspect it in hand to be sure.

There are reliable sellers and collectors here on NMB - have a look at the sales page! 

 

My main piece of advice, to build upon Collin's comment is:

 

BUY. FROM. THE. SOURCE.

 

Something I learned through this forum and some of the collectors I've interacted with is that Japan has its own auction services which see more traffic by domestic Japanese users than Ebay does. What that means is a lot of great pieces don't ever make their way onto Ebay. Prices on good pieces through Ebay are also often a lot higher than on Japanese Yahoo auctions. Services like Jauce or Remambo allow you access to these auctions, so if you are serious about collecting Tsuba you should probably make an account on one of them. The majority of my best pieces have come through these services and only my first one or two pieces came through Ebay.

 

Other than that it is largely a repeat of what has already been said, the more examples you study the better your eye for quality will become.

[martialarts]

Internet stuff- A stamp catalog allows you to learn about the detailed information of a stamp, including its country of origin, date of issue, design specifics, printing method, color variations, potential watermarks, perforation gauge, and estimated market value, essentially providing a comprehensive historical and technical breakdown of each stamp type.

 

If I compare a stamp I have to a picture in the catalog I can learn all the above stuff.

From the little I have read on the forum. tsuba don’t work the same way.

If I have match a museum catalog of tsuba to a tsuba that I want to buy, the information in the catalog does not mean that I have that same tsuba, even if the pictures match up.

I have read where it could be a fake tsuba, or even a real tsuba that was made much later, or other stuff.

Maybe I will stay with stamps, much easier to figure out and not many mistakes could be made.

But thanks for all the helpful posts.

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Hi Jacob,

I would argue that you're comparing apples and oranges here.
Tsuba are considered handmade crafts, and works of art. Whereas coins and stamps are mass produced by the govt, turned collectibles.

If each individual coin/stamp was designed by an artist and then hammered/cut out by-hand, you would see similar issues amongst coins/stamps. 

All in all, I would encourage you to collect whatever you like! 
In my experience, nothing worth doing is easy. 
And best of luck on your collection journey 
-Sam