Hamon

[KungFooey]

4 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

It's at the foot of the wall that you see the mason

Good expression Jacques. 

 

To paraphrase it, if I may, 'it's in the brushstrokes that you see the painter'.

 

To continue the painting metaphor a little further, those brushstrokes can be 'small and irregular' or 'large and irregular' - they are both adjectives and can be used entirely independently of one another.

 

In the same way, we can describe the artist as using 'reddish brown' - or a combination of red and brown. 
In the former description, to then claim that red is not a true color, in and of itself, would be patently ludicrous.

 

Dee

[Jacques D.]

9 hours ago, KungFooey said:

Good expression Jacques. 

 

To paraphrase it, if I may, 'it's in the brushstrokes that you see the painter'.

 

To continue the painting metaphor a little further, those brushstrokes can be 'small and irregular' or 'large and irregular' - they are both adjectives and can be used entirely independently of one another.

 

In the same way, we can describe the artist as using 'reddish brown' - or a combination of red and brown. 
In the former description, to then claim that red is not a true color, in and of itself, would be patently ludicrous.

 

Dee

Although my wife is a good painter, I know nothing about painting.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

At least try to give the number of hamon types on this sword.

[Gakusee]

On 1/17/2025 at 10:28 AM, Jacques D. said:

Nataniel@

 

Once again, Midareba is not the name of a hamon, but a characteristic common to all hamons. 

ps always beware of interpretations when translating

 

The second thing to look at is what elements make up the hamon. 
exercise:  could you describe the hamon's components (the name of the smith is not what you have to look for)

 

 

 

Are we discussing this image? 
 

I would describe it as predominantly sugu-gunome in monouchi with some notare areas and with nezumi ashi. [But depending on in-hand examination, one could interpret some of the horizontal hataraki as kinsuji].
The lower part is gunome midare interspersed with choji midare, togari, yo and ashi. [And again, depending on in-hand examination, some of the areas of nie in the hamon could be areas of shimi]

[Jacques D.]

Answer by the NBTHK (I wonder where the specialists, who can judge a hamon based on bad photos, are.) 

Last words about Midareba, please check Nagayama's book chapter: attribution on the hamon, page 101 onwards

 

[Natichu]

20 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Answer by the NBTHK (I wonder where the specialists, who can judge a hamon based on bad photos, are.) 

Last words about Midareba, please check Nagayama's book chapter: attribution on the hamon, page 101 onwards

 

I'm still not sure I follow, but very much appreciate the answer! Interesting to so ko-midare thrown in there as well. 

[Jacques D.]

For those who want to learn, only the hamon drawing is required, the hataraki can be ignored.

[Natichu]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

For those who want to learn, only the hamon drawing is required, the hataraki can be ignored.

Notare of some variety, with occasional choji interspersed? Not entirely sure what the question is, but have a feeling that answer is incorrect. 

[CSM101]

Dear Jacques,

 

I am sitting in my armchair, drinking a whisky (Laphroaig, 10 years, cask strength)  and i read your posts. 

 

Either you just want to provoke contradiction for your self esteem or you are clueless. But I doubt the clueless label. 

 

Nummer 1: hold the blade horizontal with the edge down to study the hamon. I have never heard, read or seen something like that. Maybe you can do that at home. Alone in your attic. But at a meeting? Handle & care? Etiquette? Ever heard about it. Please show me a description where it is allowed to hold a sword as you recommend.

 

Number 2: midare is not a hamon but a characteristic. Well, Kokan Nagayama page 96 says something different. And page 105 and 106 give examples for midare hamon and schools to the different kinds of midare. By the way: what is sanbonsugi? A hamon, a characteristic, both, none of them?

 

And now number 3: only the hamon drawing is required, the hataraki can be ignored.

 

Good luck!

 

With greetings from the armchair

 

Uwe G.

[Jacques D.]

Yes, earth is flat.

[CSM101]

Dear Jacques,

 

I don`t know if that even counts as an intellectual argument. But let´s be generous: No!

 

Because this is how a discussion works. You come up with arguments. Based on facts or not. So, all you need to do is: Prove me wrong!

 

And if you don´t or can´t then I must be right.

 

I´m waiting in my office, different armchair and no whisky.

 

So, display your arguments. The stage is yours.

[Jacques D.]

 What did you do? When you confuse ko-midare 小乱れ,  O-midare 大乱れ and midareba  乱刃 , you keep quiet. O-midare and Ko-midare are both midare but are not the same thing.

[KungFooey]

Jacques, sweetheart - why do you have to be so snarky all the time? 
Whenever you post a quiz, there's no camaraderie involved - it always feels like a trap being laid.

 

Not cool, dude.

[CSM101]

Of course o-midare and ko midare are not the same thing. But the question is: hamon or characteristic? Nagayama says both are hamon; you say it is just a characteristic. Whom would you trust: an author or the selfclaimed greatest expert for Japanese swords outside Japan? That must be you, because you are always right and no one else.

 

And what do you do, when the hatarakis are the hamon just like here in the case of Norishige. Or when the hamon is full of hatarakis like in any top-level Soshu blade? Ignore it? Yukimitsu, Masamune, Norishige, Kunimitsu, Hiromitsu. Don´t you see, that you write things that are wrong right from the start?

 

I know your problem. But you will never solve it because you can´t cross the invisible border.

[sabiji]

Uwe, just forget it!

I have also offered a discussion here because I partly disagree. I have also already pointed out here that the way Jacques recommends holding a blade should not be used at a meeting and an official Kantei. No reactions whatsoever.

Jacques holds the Nagayama in front of him like the 10 commandments and does not accept any comments or respond to them.

 

I do not mean to diminish the importance of the Nagayama in any way. Who am I to do that? It is extremely difficult to write basic books without overwhelming the interested beginner, but at the same time not giving the advanced student too general information. It is always a great balancing act.

 

Anyone who has already written lectures on the subject and has drawn on extensive sources and literature knows that they have to think carefully about their words in front of a qualified audience. That is why you have to research carefully. It is not uncommon to come across contradictions, and sometimes even incorrect statements in sources. Incorrect, in part, because such information is now considered outdated. This is quite normal, and that is why preparing such presentations is a lengthy process. Formulating your own theses from your own research paper - if you identify them as such - is certainly fruitful. "For this or that reason, I am of the opinion that..." has a completely different potential than "that's the way it is because it says so, basta!"

 

It is often recommended, especially for beginners, to invest in books first. The correct thing would be to invest in books in parallel to a practice of studying blades, guided by an experienced person.

More than 30 years ago, I also bought every book I could get (back then there was no internet). The result was that I thought that my run-of-the-mill blades looked like the Kotetsu or the Chogi in the photos in the books (on which you could basically hardly see anything).

 

It was only when I was invited to a meeting of the NBTHK-EB many, many years ago that I realized that I had to completely change my opinion. I was just beginning to see and understand. There is no substitute for practice! But there always has to be someone experienced who explains to you what you see and what you have to pay attention to. It is very important that you say what you see yourself. But also what you are not able to recognize at the moment. Only then can the teacher intervene and help.

 

I know that unfortunately not everyone has the opportunity to do this.

 

At the same time, however, I also want to smooth things over. This thread is not about anything fundamentally wrong, but rather about nuances - about points of view - which basically have little impact on the overall result. I also don't want to start a war of terminology. That's not worth it here. Everyone - or at least some (I think that's a better description) will notice that with increasing experience you become more relaxed and flexible, rather than more cemented and rigid. The reason is simple, nothing is set in stone. There is nothing that doesn't exist. You always learn something new, which can also change your own opinion.

 

You always know people with whom you can exchange ideas well, and people with whom you're better off not talking.

[CSM101]

Dear Thomas,

 

all that you write is right. But you have to contradict Jacques because here are less experienced people. You have to say what ist right and what is wrong.

 

Imagine you go to the Sword Museum and you hold a sword as Jacques says. There is a deep river right in front of the Museum. No one will ever find you...

[sabiji]

Well, on the latter point, I definitely wrote that I don't recommend it at official meetings.

 

I have already made a few oshigata, holding a blade in every conceivable position to the light in order to be able to see the characteristics of the hamon exactly. In fact, it is absolutely necessary. 

But I can't do that at a meeting. Besides, I can still see best with the traditional way.

 

But I can certainly understand Jacque's basic idea (reading from the cutting edge to the shinogi). Maybe you can do it that way for yourself. At home, of course.

 

I'm more of a calligraphy person. I read the blade the way the Japanese wrote it, from top to bottom (okay, sometimes upside down ;-))

 

For me, the boshi is the head, the face of the sword, the main theme of the hamon is the body, the yakidashi region is the foundation, the base. I do it this way because I can put the sugata in proportion at the same time. For example: is the shape right? Am I unsure about this, do I see something yakidashi-like? No? Does the blade have fumbari? No? So possibly O-Suriage...

 

And no, a yakidashi is not something that is necessarily only found from the Momoyama onwards. Of course, in Shinto, the yakidashi is sometimes strongly defined. But a hamon always arises somehow in the Ha-Machi region. Sometimes with a bang (Koshiba), sometimes with a delay (Yakiotoshi).

 

The same applies to the boshi, especially the character of the kaeri. If you see such information in combination with the sugata, I have usually already decided on a certain direction during the kantei.

 

That's why I, at least, read a blade from top to bottom, like a scroll.

 

At least that is my view, I have tried to explain it and am open to objections from which I can learn. I think that's how a good discussion works.

 

[Jacques D.]

4 hours ago, CSM101 said:

Of course o-midare and ko midare are not the same thing. But the question is: hamon or characteristic? Nagayama says both are hamon; you say it is just a characteristic. Whom would you trust: an author or the selfclaimed greatest expert for Japanese swords outside Japan? That must be you, because you are always right and no one else.

 

And what do you do, when the hatarakis are the hamon just like here in the case of Norishige. Or when the hamon is full of hatarakis like in any top-level Soshu blade? Ignore it? Yukimitsu, Masamune, Norishige, Kunimitsu, Hiromitsu. Don´t you see, that you write things that are wrong right from the start?

 

I know your problem. But you will never solve it because you can´t cross the invisible border.

Can you read Japanese? Find me a single description in Japanese of a hamon beginning with 乱刃 midareba. Nagayama alludes to it only in the lexicon at the end of his book, and the term is misunderstood and has become a misuse of language until I am proven wrong by official sources. 

Gunome (互の目) I know what it is, gunome midare (互の目乱れ) too, but just midare (乱れ) no.

 

 

Quote

when the hatarakis are the hamon just like here in the case of Norishige

False.

[KungFooey]

4 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Can you read Japanese? Find me a single description in Japanese of a hamon beginning with 乱刃 midareba. Nagayama alludes to it only in the lexicon at the end of his book, and the term is misunderstood and has become a misuse of language until I am proven wrong by official sources.

Who's an 'official source'?

[Jacques D.]

Juyo setsumei for example, I feel like I'm talking about the greenhouse effect with people who don't even know the law of perfect gases or as if a painting expert were to tell me about Manet's technique when I know absolutely nothing about painting. . 

[KungFooey]

3 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Juyo setsumei for example, I feel like I'm talking about the greenhouse effect with people who don't even know the law of perfect gases. 

Jeez Jacques,

France sure could have used a few more guys like you in the 1940 Battle of France  - you never give up the offensive, do you? 

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, sabiji said:

that's how a good discussion works.

Thomas, Uwe, (and others) everything you say is perfectly true and civilised but, when challenged, instead of engaging in constructive debate, Jacques simple either ignores perfectly valid points and questions, or he diverts away with his “Earth is flat” quote or he resorts to insults. In some cases ( as with me…and others)  he resorts to aggressive and insulting unwarranted personal messages which I’m sure he would never dare do face to face. On one post he even called me a liar and when challenged he simply went quiet and refused to explain himself.
It’s a shame, rather spoils the ambience of this excellent forum.
 

[CSM101]

Dear Colin,

 

Jacques is more or less insignificant. But I can´t let is stand undisputed. I write for all the others here just to show that there are other sources and other opinions. 

 

And when you are silent things get worse.  So, better to write and show some pics than stay silent and let Jacques come up with something that is totally wrong.

 

 

I can only hope that none of the Japanese experts read here. "Died while laughing" would be in the death certificate. And Jacques would the reason.

[Benjamin]

Having participated to this thread, I want to greatly thanks Michaël, Thomas and Uwe for their posts with nuances and corrections. Please, don't stop precising things that you think they have to be precised. I'm agree with you, Uwe, with the fact that us, newbies, always need the counterpart to forge a opinion.

 

Paradox is that Jacques is frequently sustained by experimented folks here, saying he is frequently right... but being constantly countered... making the whole thing not always understandable for us, common people. Moreover his attitude don't simplify that.

 

Jacques, you are challenged with strong arguments, you have to answer more constructively.

As I said to you, I tried to past through your attitude to see what you really have to say, I played the game. Here I'm struck to see how your knowledge is constructed with strong bias. Isn't there a bit of cognitive dissonance you tend to resolve by misinterpreting reality rather than nuance or change your opinion? That's sad because you obviously have worked a lot. You would gain taking a step back and think about it.

 

Best regards to all

[Brano]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Can you read Japanese? Find me a single description in Japanese of a hamon beginning with 乱刃 midareba.

 

 

False.

 

[Shugyosha]

1 hour ago, KungFooey said:

Jeez Jacques,

France sure could have used a few more guys like you in the 1940 Battle of France  - you never give up the offensive, do you? 

 

Yeah, Jacques' military-grade hair-splitting and obfuscation would have made the Wehrmacht think twice.

[Brano]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Juyo setsumei for example, I feel like I'm talking about the greenhouse effect with people who don't even know the law of perfect gases or as if a painting expert were to tell me about Manet's technique when I know absolutely nothing about painting. . 

I can look them up more if it's really necessary.

[Benjamin]

2 hours ago, KungFooey said:

France sure could have used a few more guys like you in the 1940 Battle of France  - you never give up the offensive, do you? 

 

Hum.. France lost the war thanks to stubborn high-grade military who denied some realities... 

 

By the way, I have a theory which say that when americans make fun of french, they are not confident with their actual situation (please, take it as a friendly funny reprisals, not a pretext to talk politics).

[sabiji]

So I'll try again, it would be a shame to lose the thread, just from my point of view, or rather the way I learned it.

 

At least Jacques seems to accept Ko- and O-midare, just not the poor ordinary Midare.

 

Simply midare can be divided much better into "tens of" different subtypes of Notare and Gunome and even more specific ones.

 

The decisive factor is which characteristic predominates. This characteristic is usually mentioned first.

 

If the Choji predominates in the Midare, it is a Choji-Midare. If the Midare dominates over the Choji, it is Midare-Choji.

If I write Sugu-O-notare, everyone knows that it is a Suguha that undulates here and there very gently and regularly.

Sugu-Komidare would be a Sugu that shows the irregularities here and there in a very small range of action.

With a Sugu-Kogunome, you could easily identify the Tani and Yakigashira mentioned by Jacques in a narrow range of action.

 

And so on, etc. Ultimately, all the terms for the properties are a set of terms that can be largely combined to describe a Hamon as differentiated as possible.

 

These deeper differentiations can certainly be argued about. The properties can be interpreted differently by different people. A good example: there are various Oshigata for well-known blades, which can obviously differ considerably. Of course, a Sugu does not become a Gunome, but it has definitely happened to me that I would have mistaken two Oshigata of the same blade for Oshigata of two different blades.

 

But that is what I have already written elsewhere, I remain quite relaxed about it.

 

I always read my Kinju as Konotare with Tsurete properties. Tanobe-Sensei later clarifies: "...ko-notare ga tsure-gokoro ni midareru Hamon..."

And here we have "Midare..." again.

[Jacques D.]

It's written hamon wa ko-midare 小乱れ  not hamon wa midareba  乱刃. Is that so hard to understand?