Hamon

[Jacques D.]

42 minutes ago, sabiji said:

So I'll try again, it would be a shame to lose the thread, just from my point of view, or rather the way I learned it.

 

At least Jacques seems to accept Ko- and O-midare, just not the poor ordinary Midare.

 

Simply midare can be divided much better into "tens of" different subtypes of Notare and Gunome and even more specific ones.

 

The decisive factor is which characteristic predominates. This characteristic is usually mentioned first.

 

If the Choji predominates in the Midare, it is a Choji-Midare. If the Midare dominates over the Choji, it is Midare-Choji.

If I write Sugu-O-notare, everyone knows that it is a Suguha that undulates here and there very gently and regularly.

Sugu-Komidare would be a Sugu that shows the irregularities here and there in a very small range of action.

With a Sugu-Kogunome, you could easily identify the Tani and Yakigashira mentioned by Jacques in a narrow range of action.

 

And so on, etc. Ultimately, all the terms for the properties are a set of terms that can be largely combined to describe a Hamon as differentiated as possible.

 

These deeper differentiations can certainly be argued about. The properties can be interpreted differently by different people. A good example: there are various Oshigata for well-known blades, which can obviously differ considerably. Of course, a Sugu does not become a Gunome, but it has definitely happened to me that I would have mistaken two Oshigata of the same blade for Oshigata of two different blades.

 

But that is what I have already written elsewhere, I remain quite relaxed about it.

 

I always read my Kinju as Konotare with Tsurete properties. Tanobe-Sensei later clarifies: "...ko-notare ga tsure-gokoro ni midareru Hamon..."

And here we have "Midare..." again.

Just false Sugu-O-notare, should be written: suguha ni notare majiri (suguha mixed with notare) Sugu-komidare should be written suguha ni ko-midare majiri.             

[Jacques D.]

On 1/21/2025 at 2:52 PM, Natichu said:

Notare of some variety, with occasional choji interspersed? Not entirely sure what the question is, but have a feeling that answer is incorrect. 

Answer (you are not so far from being atari)

[Brano]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

It's written hamon wa ko-midare 小乱れ  not hamon wa midareba  乱刃. Is that so hard to understand?

I don't expect you to accept NBTHK
But hope dies last

 

https://www.touken.o...sh/hamonleaflet.html

[Jacques D.]

1 hour ago, Brano said:

I don't expect you to accept NBTHK
But hope dies last

 

https://www.touken.o...sh/hamonleaflet.html

So what? Is it written midareba 乱刃 ? No. Once more midareba is not ko-midare which is a kind of hamon like Gunome, notare etc.

 

Last words on this subjetc i would say / MIdareba 乱刃 : irregular hamon. All hamon excepted suguha can be midareba. 

[Brano]

On 1/16/2025 at 9:29 AM, Jacques D. said:

The basic forms of hamon are suguha, notare, gunome and their corollaries = based on. Midare is not a hamon form but a hamon characteristic, and hitatsura is just an irregular gunome with numerous tobiyaki and muneyaki. 

 

When you read a hamon, what should you look for first?

This is your response from 16.1 to Jussi's response from 15.1.
Here you claim that midare is not hamon.
Now you claim that ko-midare is already hamon
You were the first to use the term Midareba and no one else
Just try to say what all this unnecessary nonsense is good for?

 

[Jacques D.]

On 1/18/2025 at 8:59 AM, Benjamin said:

In my understanding of the discussion:

 

- books (Nagayama and Nakahara at least) are stating that all non-suguha hamon are Midareba.

- Jacques is stating that NOT all non-suguha hamon are midareba, some non-suguha hamon are midare (irregular) or have midare elements, some are not, they are regular (and I think he is not wanting to say that japaneses never use the term midare in their description of hamon).

 

- Nakahara clearly state "the category of midare can be further broken down..."

- Jacques is saying "midare is not a type of hamon, just a characteristic of the hamon"

 

For me the 2 statements are not compatible (and I'm not the one to settle the discussion).

 

 

That's what fascinate me with Nihonto, it resist to be resumed in a category (art object, weapon, collectible, martial art, antiquity...)

 

Brano 

Quote

You were the first to use the term Midareba and no one else

Sure ?

[Gakusee]

7 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

It's written hamon wa ko-midare 小乱れ  not hamon wa midareba  乱刃. Is that so hard to understand?

 

Jacques, we went through this already. Refer to my post above with the excerpt from the Sano museum book, by the highly renowned but sadly now late Watanabe sensei, which splits hamon types into suguha and midareba. Written in both Japanese and English for you. 

End of argument. We are wasting time and effort and precious life energy. 

[Natichu]

9 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Answer (you are not so far from being atari)

That is much closer than I thought I might be! Clear proof that even a stopped clock is close enough to right every so often I suppose. Gunome certainly makes more sense than choji. Many thanks, and I look forward to the next portions of the thread. 

[sabiji]

15 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Just false Sugu-O-notare, should be written: suguha ni notare majiri (suguha mixed with notare) Sugu-komidare should be written suguha ni ko-midare majiri.             

Dear Jacques,
this is not meant to be a criticism and I am far from being good at Japanese.

But shouldn't it be “notare ni suguha majiri”? So the notare was mixed into the suguha? 

Depending on how you turn the sentence structure, it makes a different sense. “Suguha ni notare majiri” would rather mean that Suguha was mixed into a dominant notare.

But I'm not a grammar expert and would be honestly interested to know if I'm right or wrong.

 

[CSM101]

This is just a try to explain some things.

 

Jacques, you get an mission. A special mission. An Impossible Mission: take the Norishige and delete all the kinsuji and hataraki on the omote. Then come back and explain why hatarakis are not important. For a man who can´t recognize chikei that´s a though mission.

I know that was mean, but you earned it. See here: 

 

 

For the rest we come to a very old problem. To explain that, we have to go back in time. Roundabout 150 to 100 years. That was the time when a lot of great collections were build. Mosle, Brinckmann, Jacoby, Kümmel for Germany, Docteur Mene in France, and so on...

What did they collect? Mostly armor and kodogu. Only a few swords. Because they knew, that swords is a special thing with special vocabulary. For a better understanding I recommend Oskar Münsterberg  "Japanische Kunstgeschichte III, Berlin 1907- Japanese Art history)

It begins on page 113 = Weapons. The problem is, that we have Japanese terms to explain Japanese art. But the terms are of technical nature. And that´s the problem: how can you explain what art is? Especially when it comes to swords. 

 

" Painted wood. You see a young woman in her 20. Black hair, and in the background you can see an italian landscape. Ther woman seems to smile." That is La Gioconda or Mona Lisa.

 

How do you explain with words that you see the greatest painting in time? Okay, you have Dürer´s self portrait and Hironymos Bosch. But you see what I mean.

 

The german collectors never understood why a Japanese sword can be an object of art. And Münsterberg admitted it. 

 

 

All the books we try to understand are not for us, the westerner. They are written for a Japanese collector. Nagyyama is for beginners to amateurs. Not for pro´s. That is our level. And all the technical terms and descriptions you have to read with "cum grano salis". Means: not to be taken too serious. Jacques enters the stage: we have to read it word by word  and only that is the way!           

 

A lot of technical terms for a piece of art.   

 

And how do we solve this problem? You have to see the swords in hand. And you need someone that can explain what you see. That is the way!

 

And Jacques: I`m waiting for your answer and the picture.

 

Uwe G.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

Quote

But shouldn't it be “notare ni suguha majiri”? So the notare was mixed into the suguha?

It means suguha is mixed in (with) notare . 

 

 

Quote

Then come back and explain why hatarakis are not important.

I didn't say the hataraki weren't important. I said they could be overlooked because I haven't yet tackled the subject, which for the moment is the shape of the hamon.

 

 

This one should be easy to find.

 

[CSM101]

On 1/21/2025 at 1:20 PM, Jacques D. said:

For those who want to learn, only the hamon drawing is required, the hataraki can be ignored.

 

 

You wrote, that hataraki can be ignored. So, please ignore them and then come back.

[sabiji]

Uwe, no offense meant, I'm trying to be a peacemaker again.

 

I think I understand what Jacques means in this particular case: the viewer should focus only on the basic hamon progression, ignoring the hataraki (ashi, etc).

 

Beginners in particular are overwhelmed by the wealth of information. What is important (at the moment) and what “I can put aside for now”.

 

I just got a freshly polished blade back from Japan. The blade now shows its properties much more brilliantly. I show it to my wife, beaming with joy. “And what is this here?” and she points to a micromillimeter-fine rust hole.
What does this tiny blemish matter? She doesn't see the brilliant hada, the great ji-nie, the finely scattered, rich ko-nie of the deep, radiant nioiguchi. The tiny hole is important to her.

 

So I also believe that Jacques meant that the viewer should first block out the hataraki.

 

[Natichu]

6 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

It means suguha is mixed in (with) notare . 

 

 

I didn't say the hataraki weren't important. I said they could be overlooked because I haven't yet tackled the subject, which for the moment is the shape of the hamon.

 

 

This one should be easy to find.

 

I certainly understood you to mean that for the purposes of this exercise (and in particular that sword) to ignore hataraki, not that they are to be ignored generally. 

 

To me, this looks a clean choji-midare into a standard komaru boshi. My recollection of Facts and Fundamentals is that transition strongly points to shinto era, but that's about as far as I can go. 

[Tohagi]

Sugu- kogunome or kataoki-gunome,

Maybe some oeï bizen mitsu...

[Jacques D.]

The small number of responses is very enlightening.

 

[sabiji]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

The small number of responses is very enlightening.

Well, I hope you draw the right conclusions from this.

[Matsunoki]

Many of us just got bored with petty semantic arguments that achieved nothing except to confuse pointlessly

[Shugyosha]

3 minutes ago, sabiji said:

Well, I hope you draw the right conclusions from this.

 

I just don't want to get drawn into a thread started by Jacques because they invariably follow a predictable path. It has been this way for a while now and it seems to be getting worse rather than better.

[Jacques D.]

51 minutes ago, sabiji said:

Well, I hope you draw the right conclusions from this.

It's been done for a long time. I never had any illusions 

 

If any of you would like to continue, please send me a PM.

[KungFooey]

SELF CENSORED

[Brian]

Which I eventually censored myself and deleted, and what exactly did that comment of yours add to this thread in the Nihonto section? You're looking for excuses to be able to post personal jibes?
Thought we were over that.
 

[Stephen]

Do you think the Kansas City cheats will win this weekend, 🤔 

[CSM101]

I know, I know.... No one wants to read it anymore, but in the end it is very simple. This is the ofificial translation from NBTHK., 796. Just search for midare  or midare hamon. At least they think that something like midare hamon exists. 

 

Sorry for that! 

 

Back in my armchair.

796_NBTHK_May_2023.pdf

[KungFooey]

14 hours ago, Brian said:

Which I eventually censored myself and deleted, and what exactly did that comment of yours add to this thread in the Nihonto section? You're looking for excuses to be able to post personal jibes?
Thought we were over that.
 

Brian,

I was directly responding to Jacques' own observation that very few people had replied to his 'quiz' (read 'sarcasm trap') - his obvious implication being that most were either too dumb or too scared to try. I was simply pointing out - in perhaps too direct a manner - that the real reason might be that he deliberately upsets so many people.

 

Also dude, as administrator it is presumably your responsibility to shut down a thread like this when all of the very learned contributors (like Michael, John, Uwe and Thomas) have added everything they possibly can to teach us hard facts about Nihonto and are then simply being repudiated - over and over and in the most churlish, discourteous and boorish manner possible - by Jacques.

 

My late father used to love the Brit comedy show Monty Python (personally I couldn't stand it) and one sketch he watched again and again was where two guys are paying each other to have an argument. In the end they start arguing about whether it is actually a proper argument or not.

That's what you allow these supposed 'kantei' threads of Jacques to devolve into each and every time. 
 

Just sayin'

Dee

[Stephen]

Personally I want the bills an the commanders to go to the Super Bowl

 

My zen for the day 

 

Gute Nacht

[Alex A]

Now have Jacques on ignored users. Judging by the comments, seems i made the right decision.

 

He will never change.

[Jacques D.]

It seems that Fujishiro himself agrees with me, but if you don't know that the Japanese like shortcuts, you're forgivable.

Shinto Hen par 481.

[KungFooey]

Just now, Jacques D. said:

It seems that Fujishiro himself agrees with me, but if you don't know that the Japanese like shortcuts, you're forgivable.

Don't you mean you agree with Fujishiro - or do you lecture him too now?

[Natichu]

30 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

It seems that Fujishiro himself agrees with me, but if you don't know that the Japanese like shortcuts, you're forgivable.

Shinto Hen par 481.

Unfortunately I can't quite make out the kanji. Any chance of getting the relevant portion typed out?