Hamon

[Sheridan]

In the end, as far as adding a sword to my collection, it doesn't matter what I call this hamon or that one. I can check my reference books for that.  I don't buy a sword because it is notare or suguha or whatever. I buy it because I appreciate the art and history of it and the craftsmanship that went into styling that hamon, as well as the other aspects of the blade.  

 

That being said, I do envy my friends like Ray who are walking reference books themselves... 

[Benjamin]

In my understanding of the discussion:

 

- books (Nagayama and Nakahara at least) are stating that all non-suguha hamon are Midareba.

- Jacques is stating that NOT all non-suguha hamon are midareba, some non-suguha hamon are midare (irregular) or have midare elements, some are not, they are regular (and I think he is not wanting to say that japaneses never use the term midare in their description of hamon).

 

- Nakahara clearly state "the category of midare can be further broken down..."

- Jacques is saying "midare is not a type of hamon, just a characteristic of the hamon"

 

For me the 2 statements are not compatible (and I'm not the one to settle the discussion).

 

1 hour ago, Sheridan said:

I buy it because I appreciate the art and history of it and the craftsmanship that went into styling that hamon, as well as the other aspects of the blade.  

 

That's what fascinate me with Nihonto, it resist to be resumed in a category (art object, weapon, collectible, martial art, antiquity...)

 

[Matsunoki]

On 1/16/2025 at 2:00 PM, Jacques D. said:

Source Nagayama's and every Japanese one

Every Japanese one? Apparently not?

……and does it even matter?

[Jacques D.]

乱刃  (midareba) is not 小乱れ (ko-mIdare);  Ko-midare is a kind of hamon, it's a deformed suguha, often found in ko-Bizen

[Matsunoki]

Let’s all agree with Jacques, it’s easier.

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

乱刃  (midareba) is not 小乱れ (ko-mIdare);  Ko-midare is a kind of hamon, it's a deformed suguha, often found in ko-Bizen

 

Oh, Jacques, why does it have to be so difficult? I patiently waited and resisted throughout all the pontificatory edification as I agree with the concept that people need to master the basics.

But a bit more humility and grace will serve us all well. Midareba (irregular) is a type of hamon, it has always been and will always be. 
Of course, it is preferable to elaborate what type of midare we are talking about: gunome midare or notare midare etc but sometimes the hamon is simply so all over the place and composite that one part is more choji heavy, another part is more notate, another might be gunome. Whatever is most prevalent will normally precede the term “midare” so you find descriptions such as “choji midare with gunome elements at the base” or “notare midare trending to ….” Etc. 
 

Again - please. You have a lot to give and contribute but we are all learning still…. Even after 20-25-40-50 years or whatever in the hobby we are still all beginners. 
————————————————————

 

刃文とは刃先の白い模様のことで、焼入れによって生じ、研磨によって白く輝く。

日本刀の重要な鑑賞ポイントであるとともに、流派の特徴や刀工の個性が表れるので、

鑑定でも重要なポイントになる。刃文は直刃と乱刃に大別され、乱れ刃の中でも形状によって細かく分類される。

また刀文が刃文にとどまらず棟のほうまで及んでいるものを棟焼という。また同様に模様が連なることを連れるという。

 

English Translation:

 

The term “hamon” refers to the white patterns along the edge of the blade, which are created through the quenching process and made to shine brightly through polishing.

Hamon is not only a crucial point of appreciation for Japanese swords, but it also reflects the characteristics of specific schools and the individuality of the swordsmiths, making it an important feature in sword appraisal.

Hamon is broadly classified into straight patterns (suguha) and irregular patterns (midareba), with the irregular patterns further subdivided based on their specific shapes.

Additionally, when the hamon extends beyond the blade edge to the spine of the sword, it is referred to as muneyaki (spine tempering). Similarly, when patterns continue seamlessly, it is called tsureru (continuation of patterns).

 

Copyright: The Great Masterpieces of Japanese Sword (Watanabe Taeko, Sano Museum)

Translation: ChatGPT

[Alex A]

Personally, tend to think subjects can be overanalysed, i guess that comes with human nature and repetition.

[Jacques D.]

 Tchat GPT ? I asked it to tell to me when i've discovered America. Answer was :"Jacques D. discovered America in 1492).

[KungFooey]

Are these questions intended to test, to instruct or to belittle?

I'm always confused as to the actual motive.

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

 Tchat GPT ? I asked it to tell to me when i've discovered America. Answer was :"Jacques D. discovered America in 1492).

one has to love you for the comical effect, Jacques, like a pantomime villain…. As I said, translation is ChatGPT for those who cannot read and understand Japanese. I appended the original Japanese text and as you know it says exactly that….

 

Of course, you are not commenting about the key point, namely that Watanabe sensei differentiated between suguha and midare as the principal types of hamon and instead you choose to digress….

[KungFooey]

6 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

one has to love you for the comical effect, Jacques, like a pantomime villain…. 

HE'S BEHIND YOU!

[Mark S.]

[Alex A]

44 minutes ago, KungFooey said:

Are these questions intended to test, to instruct or to belittle?

I'm always confused as to the actual motive.

 

Always to belittle. im afraid.

 

For at least a second i thought Jacques was starting a genuine thread to help beginners but then came to my senses reading a bit further on when he referred to "armchair experts" for no apparent reason. 

 

He is talking to folks like they are stupid. never seen, held or owned swords. Like they own swords and have not yet worked out how to see them, like they are thick.

 

Yet folks still take him on

 

Some of us have him sussed.

[Gakusee]

4 minutes ago, Alex A said:

 

Always to belittle. im afraid.

 

For at least a second i thought Jacques was starting a genuine thread to help beginners but then came to my senses reading a bit further on when he referred to "armchair experts" for no apparent reason. 

 

He is talking to folks like they are stupid. never seen, held or owned swords. Like they own swords and have not yet worked out how to see them, like they are thick.

 

Yet folks still take him on

 

Some of us have him sussed.

“Sussed” or not, Alex, it is still amusing to engage dialectically with Jacques just to disprove some of his grandiloquent statements.  He is often right in his views but sometimes they could be very extreme. 

[Lewis B]

21 minutes ago, KungFooey said:

HE'S BEHIND YOU!

Oh no it isn't.....

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Tchat GPT ? I asked it to tell to me when i've discovered America. Answer was :"Jacques D. discovered America in 1492).

Is the translation wrong? 
yes or no?

if yes….how?

[Alex A]

9 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

“Sussed” or not, Alex, it is still amusing to engage dialectically with Jacques just to disprove some of his grandiloquent statements.  He is often right in his views but sometimes they could be very extreme. 

Used to think that Michael, now aware.

 

Its like i took the pill that got me out of the Matrix

[Jacques D.]

乱刃 Midareba. Can some one giving a clear definition of what it means ?

[KungFooey]

2 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

乱刃 Midareba. Can some one giving a clear definition of what it means ?

(Aladdin's Evil Uncle)

"OH YES I CAN!"

 

(Audience, all together)

"OH NO YOU CAN'T!"

[Jacques D.]

Or how to contradict yourself (Nakahara's book page 47)

[Gakusee]

27 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

乱刃 Midareba. Can some one giving a clear definition of what it means ?

BA or also pronounced Ha in other conjunctions and as in the word Hamon. Hardened sharp edge 

Midare: irregular 

[Mushin]

Love Jacques, or hate him, you must admit that his statements, assertions and perspectives produce long, and often very interesting threads. Yes, Jacques' bedside manner leaves much to be desired, but the fact is that difficult, smart people often make great teachers, but not for obvious reasons. Just the fact that they force you to reexamine your own beliefs can be a good thing, if not an exhausting exercise.

[Matsunoki]

3 minutes ago, Mushin said:

smart people often make great teachers,

That’s ok if the teacher is correct. Not so good if he isn’t or if opinions are quoted as facts or if simple questions are avoided/ignored. Ends up in total confusion….as on this thread. A newbie reading this will be scratching his head. 

[Benjamin]

There is (and there will be) countless post on Jacques's behaviour. Shouldn't we, this time, focus on the thread that is really interesting?

Of course, it's up to us, newbies, to read with critical sense, through the participation of all.

[Natichu]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Or how to contradict yourself (Nakahara's book page 47)

With respect, no one is arguing gunome-midare doesn't exist. How does this prove your point or show a contradiction? Naming the specific (ie the subtype) doesn't mean the general (ie overarching type) doesn't exist as a category. 

 

Again, this isn't to say I think (or even have the knowledge base) to say you're wrong, just that I don't think the pieces you've put forward logically support your position. 

 

At any rate, I look forward to the reading of the hamon in Monday. 

[Jacques D.]

1 hour ago, Natichu said:

With respect, no one is arguing gunome-midare doesn't exist. How does this prove your point or show a contradiction? Naming the specific (ie the subtype) doesn't mean the general (ie overarching type) doesn't exist as a category. 

 

Again, this isn't to say I think (or even have the knowledge base) to say you're wrong, just that I don't think the pieces you've put forward logically support your position. 

 

At any rate, I look forward to the reading of the hamon in Monday. 

OK... Small regular Gunome are called DOEI BA; What does it mean ?

[Natichu]

7 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

OK... Small regular Gunome are called DOEI BA; What does it mean ?

Precisely that. Which, as the intro clause to that paragraph makes clear ("Gunome-midare:...") as well as the outro ("...this kind of gunome-midare work.") is a form of gunome-midare. So the regularity doesn't move it out of the midareba category it would seem, at least by Nakahara's version of things. At least that is my reading of it, so it isn't worth much. But given the Socratic nature of these proceedings, that's what we seem to be stuck with at the moment. 

[Natichu]

At any rate, I'm with the group and happy to drop the point to see where the thread goes, and appreciate the effort to educate by Jacques and his perspective. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I have never heard that term before but I believe the Doei-ba that Nakahara is referring would relate to Yoshii (吉井) offshoot Dōei (道永). Yoshii is not that desirable school by high end collectors so I have looked at many interesting Yoshii items as I feel they have potential for lower budget. Quite regular gunome is commonly seen in Yoshii work.

[Jacques D.]

In the meantime, you'd be better off trying to describe the Hamon I've suggested, without a book or the Internet of course. It's at the foot of the wall that you see the mason