Hamon

[Benjamin]

If You allow a comment, the format is not perfect for large participation : the one who have obvious answers will not answer (legitimately thinking they are out of league for that game) and the one who haven't answer will not answer (not to spam the topic with a "I don't know" or random answer). Even more without book or internet, the one with a doubt will hesitate to answer until you go on.

I suggest you let people who have doubt to check books and precise it, that allow to discuss references. The aim is to fix term in our mind, not to be in failure.

And this thread have already a few hundred view, don't forget that there is people that play the game in their head without responding, and waiting for the initial promise for explanations.

I suggest also to greet each question with a detailed and interesting revealing of answers to sustain the interest of participants. And sometime to trigger debate

Just my thinking, not an asking.

 

for my response (without book) :

 

Spoiler

Suguha

Midare

Notare

Hitatsura

 

for the base, but there is more and more declinations of these one (Gunome-midare, toranba, sanbonsugi, etc...)

I have a doubt about Gunome as it should be classed as a base or a declination.

 

[Mark S.]

1 hour ago, Benjamin said:

 

I suggest also to greet each question with a detailed and interesting revealing of answers to sustain the interest of participants. And sometime to trigger debate

Just my thinking, not an asking.

 

Don’t worry… it took us all a long time to realize (unfortunately) that what you hope for is not the goal in these threads.

[Jacques]

1 hour ago, Benjamin said:

If You allow a comment, the format is not perfect for large participation : the one who have obvious answers will not answer (legitimately thinking they are out of league for that game) and the one who haven't answer will not answer (not to spam the topic with a "I don't know" or random answer). Even more without book or internet, the one with a doubt will hesitate to answer until you go on.

I suggest you let people who have doubt to check books and precise it, that allow to discuss references. The aim is to fix term in our mind, not to be in failure.

And this thread have already a few hundred view, don't forget that there is people that play the game in their head without responding, and waiting for the initial promise for explanations.

I suggest also to greet each question with a detailed and interesting revealing of answers to sustain the interest of participants. And sometime to trigger debate

Just my thinking, not an asking.

 

for my response (without book) :

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Suguha

Midare

Notare

Hitatsura

 

for the base, but there is more and more declinations of these one (Gunome-midare, toranba, sanbonsugi, etc...)

I have a doubt about Gunome as it should be classed as a base or a declination.

 

I think differently, I think that many armchair experts, as Guido called them, don't answer because they don't want to be wrong.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think it would be only

Suguha

Midare

 

Of course classifying like this there are lots and lots of variations in midare. As in this classification any non-suguha type is under midare classification.

[Jacques]

The basic forms of hamon are suguha, notare, gunome and their corollaries = based on. Midare is not a hamon form but a hamon characteristic, and hitatsura is just an irregular gunome with numerous tobiyaki and muneyaki. 

 

When you read a hamon, what should you look for first?

[Nihonto student]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

 

When you read a hamon, what should you look for first?

Time to join 

 

1 Composition (Nie or nioi)

2 Opening   (Yakidashi)

3 General observation of the development for stylistic identification

4 Closing    (Boshi)

[sabiji]

4 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Midare is not a hamon form but a hamon characteristic, and hitatsura is just an irregular gunome with numerous tobiyaki and muneyaki. 

 

As an “amateur expert”, I want to agree with Jussi. I have also learned that there are two main types, Sugu and Midare. 

 

It helps to familiarize yourself with the Japanese language and script. There is either a hamon with a straight (sugu) or a restless (midare) character. Starting from this basis, terms such as gunome or notare etc. denote characteristics of a hamon that is NOT EVEN, i.e. a midare. Gunome - alternating “eyes” like an amplitude, or notare - “eyes” like gentle (sea) bays.

 

I don't want to shoot up your thread. But I don't necessarily agree with some of it. But of course you are welcome to discuss it.

In any case, I would advise the inexperienced novice not to hold a blade crosswise with the cutting edge down in front of him if he is ever invited to a kantei or blade inspection. It could be the last time he is allowed to take part...

 

[Matsunoki]

I would just like to ask if @Jacques D. statements are facts (sources?) or just opinions. If so - whose?…. because opinions can vary. Not trying to spoil the thread, just to ascertain where the gospel comes from. 

 

[Jacques]

Jussi, you can have a regular gunome just as you can have an irregular gunome, hamon is gunome not midare. With the exception of suguha, all hamon can be midare or not, midare is not a type of hamon, just a characteristic of the hamon.

 

Source Nagayama's and every Japanese one

[Natichu]

Interesting. I'll have to check my Connoisseurs Guide when I get home, but my recollection is that he states something similar to Markus Sesko in the text. In his Kantei Guide, Mr. Sesko writes:

 

"First of all, we distinguish between if the hardening is straight or undulating and refer thus to the two main types of a suguha (直刃) and a midareba (乱刃) respectively. According to the actual outline of the hamon, the latter type, i.e. the midareba, is further subdivided into a notareba (湾れ刃・のたれ刃, large waves), gunomeba (互の目刃, larger roundish elements), chôjiba (丁子刃, smaller clove/tassel-shaped elements), or tôranba (濤瀾刃, surging waves). Apart from that, there is the so-called hitatsura (皆焼) where large areas of the blade are hardened. A hitatsura can be based on a notareba, gunomeba, or even a chôjiba, so this term does not refer to a specific hamon outline. "

[nulldevice]

From Conoisseur's 

 

Quote

Hamon can basically be classified as suguha (straight pattern), notare (undulating pattern), and gunome (zigzag pattern). To put it more simply, all hamon but suguha are midareba (irregular pattern). The category of midare can be further broken down into ko-midare (a small-patterned midarebe), o-midare (large-pattern midarebe), and saka-midare (midareba with a slanted pattern). There are also hamon in which these basic patterns are mixed. The various patterns of the hamon were subject to the general aesthetic trends of each era, and also show characteristic features of the period, province, and school of their production. The hamon is also a good indicator of a swordsmith's level of skill.

 

 

Nagayama says both what Jacques said above (suguha, notare, and gunome) and then in the next sentence what others have stated (suguha and not suguha [aka midareba]). 

[Jacques]

I would love to see a Japanese description of a hamon saying only 刃文 乱れ. I've seen 互の目乱れ or 丁子乱れ but 乱れ never . Unitl i'm proven wrong midareba is not a name of a hamon

[Natichu]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

I would love to see a Japanese description of a hamon saying only 刃文 乱れ. I've seen 互の目乱れ or 丁子乱れ but 乱れ never . Unitl i'm proven wrong midareba is not a name of a hamon

An interesting point. Though I would say that just because the specific style of midareba is by convention given, it does not mean the overarching family doesn't exist as such - particularly when the overarching family is referenced. 

 

Regardless, thank you for continuing the thread, and I look forward to the next set of questions! 

[Jacques]

I'll come back to the midare (ko) later.

The first thing to look for is the basis of the hamon = what is it based on? A suguha, a Notare, a Gunome? The base of the hamon will give us an indication towards the den (I'm talking about koto blades).

 

What are we looking for next (I still haven't broached the subject of nie and nioi)?

[Scogg]

If we're still in the Hamon, and prior to nie and nioi identification...

Next, do we look at boshi? 

Fully prepared to be wrong ,
-Sam

[Natichu]

Given my failing grade thus far, I have to assume I'll be wrong, but:

 

Spoiler

The quality and characteristics of the nioiguchi, and any hataraki? 

 

[Sheridan]

I would agree with Markus' opinion on the main types (thanks for posting that Nathaniel)...

[Benjamin]

Hadn't time to answer last one due to work, etc.. But the show must go on!!!

 

here is my next wrong answer :

 

Spoiler

After the basis of the hamon, I would see at the nioiguchi line : it form and how it complete the basis

 

I have a little question : what you call the "basis" can it be called the Habuchi ? (or is the habuchi the same thing as the nioiguchi?)

[Natichu]

Just to close the loop on my previous thought, I can see both the Connoisseur's Guide (page 92) and Facts and Fundamentals (page 44) being somewhat ambiguous, but likely leaning towards Jacques' point overall. 

[Jacques]

Nataniel@

 

Once again, Midareba is not the name of a hamon, but a characteristic common to all hamons. 

ps always beware of interpretations when translating

 

The second thing to look at is what elements make up the hamon. 
exercise:  could you describe the hamon's components (the name of the smith is not what you have to look for)

 

 

[Nihonto student]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Nataniel@

 

Once again, Midareba is not the name of a hamon, but a characteristic common to all hamons. 

ps always beware of interpretations when translating

 

The second thing to look at is what elements make up the hamon. 
exercise:  could you describe the hamon's components (the name of the smith is not what you have to look for)

 

 

 

Left : almost Suguha with ko ashi.

Right: Fukuro choji with ko ashi and yo

[Natichu]

3 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Nataniel@

 

Once again, Midareba is not the name of a hamon, but a characteristic common to all hamons. 

ps always beware of interpretations when translating

 

The second thing to look at is what elements make up the hamon. 
exercise:  could you describe the hamon's components (the name of the smith is not what you have to look for)

 

 

I think we're straying well beyond my knowledge and abilities here but I'd say:

 

Spoiler

Left (ura?) - chu-suguha with ashi and kinsuji coming to a notare-komi with short kaeri. 

 

Right (omote?) - some sort of choji, but that's about all I have. 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

While I agree in general what Jacques is stating, I think there might be bit of language barrier. I believe pretty much all Japanese sources, including Nagayama agree on the 2 type general classification of suguha and midareba. Notare, chōji, gunome and other variations are listed under midareba.

 

Here is a page from Sano Museum book

 

 

Here are pictures from 図説 日本刀用語辞典. There are probably 50+ midareba classified hamon listed in the book, including all basic variations of notare, gunome, chōji and their combinations, and rare unique ones.

 

 

 

 

Here is an end of NBTHK kantei explanation in issue 595 for kantei item in 593 which was tantō by Rai Kunitoshi. I believe in latter part of this it is said, as there were bids on Rai Kunimitsu it is explained that around 6 out of 10 works by Rai Kunimitsu are midareba vs. suguha. Made as a comparison to Rai Kunitoshi whose work is suguha based. As you know Rai school well you will know better than me what NBTHK means by this.

 

 

 

 

It is bit pointless to argue such minor differences in view. In general it is very educating to read threads like these. I am bit ashamed to confess that I don't care too much about the extremely fine details in workmanship that is required for very high level sword appreciation.

[Natichu]

2 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

While I agree in general what Jacques is stating, I think there might be bit of language barrier. I believe pretty much all Japanese sources, including Nagayama agree on the 2 type general classification of suguha and midareba. Notare, chōji, gunome and other variations are listed under midareba.

 

Here is a page from Sano Museum book

 

 

Here are pictures from 図説 日本刀用語辞典. There are probably 50+ midareba classified hamon listed in the book, including all basic variations of notare, gunome, chōji and their combinations, and rare unique ones.

 

 

 

 

Here is an end of NBTHK kantei explanation in issue 595 for kantei item in 593 which was tantō by Rai Kunitoshi. I believe in latter part of this it is said, as there were bids on Rai Kunimitsu it is explained that around 6 out of 10 works by Rai Kunimitsu are midareba vs. suguha. Made as a comparison to Rai Kunitoshi whose work is suguha based. As you know Rai school well you will know better than me what NBTHK means by this.

 

 

 

 

It is bit pointless to argue such minor differences in view. In general it is very educating to read threads like these. I am bit ashamed to confess that I don't care too much about the extremely fine details in workmanship that is required for very high level sword appreciation.

As you note Jussi, it's a bit of a taxonomical difference likely without great substance except to those at the highest of levels. For example, in my case, does it matter whether what I can't identify is a hamon type or a hamon subtype? Either way, the nature of the classification is not exactly nearly as important as the fact I can't identify it properly either way LOL. 

[Benjamin]

Very wild guess again for me :

 

Spoiler

Tachi-mei side (omote?) : Gunome midare with Choji (from the yakigashira) achi and yo

other side (ura?) : suguha based ko-achi with nijuba (?)

boshi : suguha consistant with hamon, komaru and short kaeri

Do I see an utsuri ?

 

[Jacques]

Jussi, I'm going to try one last time to make you understand that midareba is not a hamon name. Here's a tachi by Rai Kunitoshi that can be classed as midareba, take a good look at the NBTHK's description of hamon (translation Markus Sesko). Now, you can do what you want with it, it's not my problem.

 

Answer monday

[Jussi Ekholm]

The thing is Jacques I agree with you, and have been agreeing for a long time. It is just a matter of tiny terminological differences what I see as classification you see as characteristic and I wont argue about it. I would feel stupid if a good thread would be just filled with pointless arguing.

 

Your example of Rai Kunitoshi and the hamon description shows very nicely how high level sword appreciation is. Many Japanese authorities like these extremely detailed descriptions. Having participated NBTHK monthly kantei for some years now, I have learned how to play small details text game. However in reality I wouldn't focus on those small details as I don't understand them properly. As you've said before there is difference in real life knowledge and text knowledge. The fine details of high level kantei are not things that personally interest me but I am amazed at the eye some people have and how they can identify extreme details and judge quality of smiths.

[Franco D]

Sugu-based, midare-based, these words have meaning. They prepare you for what you are about to see. 

[Natichu]

On 1/16/2025 at 10:13 AM, Jacques D. said:

I would love to see a Japanese description of a hamon saying only 刃文 乱れ. I've seen 互の目乱れ or 丁子乱れ but 乱れ never . Unitl i'm proven wrong midareba is not a name of a hamon

Just on that point:

 

"刃紋：刃紋は小乱れ、小丁子乱れとなり染み心となる。"

 

The official Japanese description on Aoi for this sword:

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana：mumei-unsigned-attributed-to-ko-aoe-nbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-tokenconsignment-sale/

 

At any rate, I'm content either way, but was just interesting to see come up (albeit ko-midare). 

[nulldevice]

2 hours ago, Natichu said:

Just on that point:

 

"刃紋：刃紋は小乱れ、小丁子乱れとなり染み心となる。"

 

The official Japanese description on Aoi for this sword:

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana：mumei-unsigned-attributed-to-ko-aoe-nbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-tokenconsignment-sale/

 

At any rate, I'm content either way, but was just interesting to see come up (albeit ko-midare). 

I see Ko-midare mentioned often in many Japanese texts. If a hamon is 100% chogi, it will say chogi but if its irregular and has various elements, it’s usually described as Ko-Midare with ashi/chogi/etc.