A Puzzling Item.

[sanjuro]

In one's search for all things Nihonto, and the necessary trawling of auctions, I came upon this little item for which I have no explanation. Not having access at present to my own library, and also not having by any measure an encyclopeadic knowledge, I was wondering if anyone out there can enlighten me as to what this actually is.

It is described as a Keiko To, which I have never come across before, and which unfortunately Google does nothing to explain. It brings to mind a keiba no dachi but doesnt quite fit that description either.

[John A Stuart]

A keikoto is a practice sword, 稽古刀. If this is what they are refering to. I have not seen one like this with a single handed grip, but, should have a blunt edge. John

[Toryu2020]

Looks more like a theatrical item, as might be used in Gagaku performance rather than something for kenjutsu practice. MHO

-tom

[Grey Doffin]

Are we even sure this is Japanese?

Grey

[sanjuro]

Grey

 

The dealer is known to me and I have had some excellent items from him in the past. He assures me this is indeed Japanese, and quite old. By old he usually means pre Edo.

Further information he has provided is that the blade is steel but without an edge. If it is indeed a practice sword then it would certainly have that feature. The blade can be withdrawn from the tsuka and has two mekugi of black horn.

There are still a few odd features about this though.

[estcrh]

I just purchased it, wanted to check it out, should be good for Mardi Gras though! I have heard the samurai police used blunt swords to capture suspects also, has anyone else heard this or seen one?

[Marius]

I just purchased it, wanted to check it out, should be good for Mardi Gras though! I have heard the samurai police used blunt swords to capture suspects also, has anyone else heard this or seen one?

 

You may be referring to jutte (or jitte), a defensive weapon used by the Edo period police, the so called doshin (consisting of samurai, of course). Jutte was by no means a sword. Google "hachiwari" and "jutte" to get more info.

[estcrh]

I just purchased it, wanted to check it out, should be good for Mardi Gras though! I have heard the samurai police used blunt swords to capture suspects also, has anyone else heard this or seen one?

 

You may be referring to jutte (or jitte), a defensive weapon used by the Edo period police, the so called doshin (consisting of samurai, of course). Jutte was by no means a sword. Google "hachiwari" and "jutte" to get more info.

I have seen jutte and hachi wari and own examples of both, I am referring to actual swords that were not sharp, I remember reading a reference to samurai police or doshin in a book or article were the author stated that unsharpened swords were used to help capture suspects. I will see if I can find the reference again.

[Marius]

I have seen jutte and hachi wari and own examples of both, I am referring to actual swords that were not sharp, I remember reading a reference to samurai police or doshin in a book or article were the author stated that unsharpened swords were used to help capture suspects. I will see if I can find the reference again.

 

I see. That would be very interesting. What advantage would an unsharpened sword have over a bludgeon or/and a jutte... But then again, Musashi Miyamoto was successfully fighting with wood swords... Everything is possible in Japanese sword history

[John A Stuart]

The central policing authority in Edo was the machibugyosho and as well as administration it had judicial jurisdiction of non-Samurai. Samurai were policed by the ometuke and the metsuke, shogunate branches. The machibuyosho was headed by two chief magistrates. the kitamachibugyo and the minamimachibugyo. They rotated duties bi-monthly. A seperate entity had juristiction over the shrines and temples, the jishabugyo. Yoriki were low ranking samurai and direct retainers of one of the bugyo and were administrators and rarely had actual participation in investigations or arrests. They were allowed to wear the daisho. The Doshin were the actual patrol officers and wore only one sword although the were even lower ranked samurai. There were three groups of Doshin, sanmawari, patrols- jomawaridoshin and rinjimawaridoshin and carried a jutte as a badge of rank, under cover- onmitsumawaridoshin. They had assistants, full time- Komono and part time- Goyoukiki, issued a jutte as was needed. Volunteers were needed at times for arrests and were called Otokodate. Ex-criminals and low class informers paid for information etc. were called Okappiki. They were also the torturers at times. Other than jutte and tetsuken I find no mention of blunted swords. Maybe it arose from the tetsuken which is very similar to the hachiwari. John

[IanB]

Two aspects of this object strike me as being unusual: Firstly the 'blade' has no habaki and secondly the archaic shape of the tsuka. I suspect, like Tom, the object is a prop for one of the ancient court or shrine dances, a factor partially supported by the flimsy nature of the tsuba. Back in the late 1960's I once owned a jitte mounted as a sword. It looked exactly like a wakizashi, with all the usual fittings, including a kozuka, except that the hirazukuri blade had a rounded edge and was unhardened. I remember the saya was a pleasant buff colour. At first I thought it was a sword that some idiot had blunted until I noticed the habaki was shaped internally to fit the rounded edge. Wish I still had it!

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

"The dôshin either grinded the ha (sharpened edge) off their wakizashi or carried special wakizashi forged with extra-thick dull blades. The short blunted wakizashi were considered more suitable for making arrests, especially within confined spaces. A resisting suspect could easily be stunned and immobilized with a strike from such a blade without risking a potentially lethal injury as with a sharpened sword." .........................This is from Don Cunningham's book Samurai Weapons Tools of the Warrior page 131 in the chapter discussing uchiharai jutte. This is the reference I read about a dull sword being used by samurai police. Has Mr Bottomley or anyone else heard of this type of weapon?

[John A Stuart]

I have had correspondence with Don Cunningham a few years ago and know who he is. i do know he has researched this area pretty well, but, I refuse to believe anybody would grind the edge off anything when a non-tempered blade could be fitted out cheaply into koshirae if indeed this was the practise. I am in severe doubt of this reasoning. Sorry Don, you'll have to provide sources for that, if you are listening. John

[estcrh]

I have had correspondence with Don Cunningham a few years ago and know who he is. i do know he has researched this area pretty well, but, I refuse to believe anybody would grind the edge off anything when a non-tempered blade could be fitted out cheaply into koshirae if indeed this was the practise. I am in severe doubt of this reasoning. Sorry Don, you'll have to provide sources for that, if you are listening. John

I purchased the kusarigama he used as a model in the same book from him awhile back, he seems to know what he is talking about and I have never heard anyone dispute his writings, perhaps swords that were damaged were used for this purpose, but on the other hand I have never heard of this practice or weapon any were else. Perhaps the dull sword type weapon that Mr Bottomley mentioned in his above post was one of these?

[IanB]

I suspect the weapon I had was exactly that described. In those days there was a fair amount of material about at cheap prices that had been bought by Victorian tourists and then abandoned and stored in cellars and attics. Condition often left much to be desired and the 'blade' in the item I had was pretty rusty when I bought it. I do remember it being quite a chunky thing and heavy. From what I now know, I would doubt it ever had a hamon - just a piece of iron or steel shaped like a hirazukuri blade. A good blow would have easily broken your arm or cracked your skull.

Ian

[estcrh]

I suspect the weapon I had was exactly that described. In those days there was a fair amount of material about at cheap prices that had been bought by Victorian tourists and then abandoned and stored in cellars and attics. Condition often left much to be desired and the 'blade' in the item I had was pretty rusty when I bought it. I do remember it being quite a chunky thing and heavy. From what I now know, I would doubt it ever had a hamon - just a piece of iron or steel shaped like a hirazukuri blade. A good blow would have easily broken your arm or cracked your skull.

Ian

..............I would have loved to see that, I would imaging that even today if someone found one of these they would have no idea what it was and how rare it would be. Some were, one of these is just sitting on a shelf and the owner has no idea what it is!

[Toryu2020]

ESTCRH -

I think the problem is with the term "blunted", I think "blunt-swords" is probably a clearer idea. These were made blunt/dull from the get-go not fully made nihonto that then had their edges removed. In Kendo Kata people use "Ha-biki" which are blunted swords but these are nickel replicas that have the edge cut off not fully tempered and forge folded blades...

FWIW

-tom

[estcrh]

"The dôshin either grinded the ha (sharpened edge) off their wakizashi or carried special wakizashi forged with extra-thick dull blades. The short blunted wakizashi were considered more suitable for making arrests, especially within confined spaces. A resisting suspect could easily be stunned and immobilized with a strike from such a blade without risking a potentially lethal injury as with a sharpened sword." .........................This is from Don Cunningham's book Samurai Weapons Tools of the Warrior page 131 in the chapter discussing uchiharai jutte. This is the reference I read about a dull sword being used by samurai police. Has Mr Bottomley or anyone else heard of this type of weapon?

.........Tom I agree with you, and I have seen a something that looks like a cast kabuto wari with a thick sword like blade for sale in Japan, but Don Cunningham uses the words "grinded the ha (sharpened edge) off their wakizashi" and "carried special wakizashi forged with extra-thick dul blades" the words grinded and forged are whats in question here, is this a mistake or just another example a almost lost or forgotten weapon from Japan?

[Toryu2020]

Estrch -

I am hardly in a position to argue with Mr Cunningham, wakizashi with extra thick dull blades fits with what I have encountered in my own limited experience. Given the numbers of police personnel over 250 years or so I would think we would see lots of blunted blades around. That not being the case it has to have been pretty rare from someone to have dulled a perfectly good blade for this purpose. mho

-tom

[estcrh]

In one's search for all things Nihonto, and the necessary trawling of auctions, I came upon this little item for which I have no explanation. Not having access at present to my own library, and also not having by any measure an encyclopeadic knowledge, I was wondering if anyone out there can enlighten me as to what this actually is.

It is described as a Keiko To, which I have never come across before, and which unfortunately Google does nothing to explain. It brings to mind a keiba no dachi but doesnt quite fit that description either.

 

Keiko.........Study or practice. The deeper meaning is to return to the origin. Through the study of the past and appreciation for its experience we can understand the present and refine our spirit. I read that "to" means sword but I could not find the two words used together.

[Stephen]

ESTCRH

 

please sign off with your name per sign up rules.

 

easy to do in your profile so you dont have to type it each time.

[estcrh]

ESTCRH

 

please sign off with your name per sign up rules.

 

easy to do in your profile so you dont have to type it each time.

Ok