Peter Bleed Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 I am curious about the audience for machine made blades of the WWII era. One of the first skills that “serious” American collectors needed to gain in the old days was how to separate “gunto” from “samurai swords.” Modern “machine-made” swords were pretty much ignored. It took a couple of English collectors – Fuller and Gregory, thank you!– to begin paying attention to the fact that gunto were signed and dated. As market forces made it harder to find and collect pre-modern blades (ie. they got expensive and harder to “find”), collectors’ scholarship about wartime blades began to grow and even flourish. “Military swords” have become a serious topic and a reasonable and interesting focus for many collectors. The question I would ask is if this excellent research is at all interesting to folks in Japan. Are Japanese archives paying attention to your work, Bruce? Peter 4 Quote
Stephen Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 Sidebar I remember your bundle swords Petie we always dug through him to find that one special true Nihonto Quote
oli Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 Not shure, but is this website not from a Japanese person? http://ohmura-study.net/900.html 1 Quote
Peter Bleed Posted January 7 Author Report Posted January 7 Clealry, semantics matter. My interest is in BLADES rather than FITTINGS (koshirae). Clearly Ohmura-sama's presentations shows that some Japanese collectors are interested in military fittings. "Machine made" blades seem not to be legal in modern Japan, altho they certainly were made by expert craftsmen who drew on traditions of Japanese cutlery. Producing gunto blades was also a difficult process that certainly involved great skill. They were also signed and finished in very Japanese manner. Officially, "machine made blades of the Showa era" seem not considered "Nippon-to", but I have to wonder if (and sincerely hope that) some Japanese individuals or organizations (musuems, Seki-area cutlery organizations ???) might be interested in having information of this phase of sword history. If they exist, they should well draw on the work done by American and Western collectors. Peter 1 Quote
RobCarter3 Posted January 7 Report Posted January 7 28 minutes ago, Peter Bleed said: "Machine made" blades seem not to be legal in modern Japan It seems like this largely answers your question as to Japanese collectors. Anecdotally, it seems like we're seeing papered gunto with increasing frequency out of recognition for wartime historical value, but before they can submit for papers they still have to get past prefectural registration boards which may have different opinions and standards. It's hard to meaningfully collect or study something when there are so few registered examples that can legally be owned. Again, anecdotally, based on my browsing of Japanese dealer sites, it appears that the practice of removing stamps is still fairly prevalent in Japan, which may suggest that registration boards still believe that the presence of any stamps = non-traditional, or that owners are not willing to risk it. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I think gunto (non-nihonto) have obvious appeal to all sorts of militaria collectors, WWII collectors, edged weapon collectors, and more, and not just as the "next best thing." Japanese military pattern swords were the last swords in human history that were taken into combat on a widespread basis. I think that's pretty darn cool. The Japanese used cutting-edge contemporary technologies to engineer swords in response to various field conditions--mantetsu-to, gunsui-to, sabinaito. I think that's also pretty darn cool. And, obviously, these objects mattered a great deal to their original owners. They mortgaged the farm to buy them. They brought them into inconvenient places like inside midget submarines. They took them in hand in final, desperate charges. Traditional or not, they are the final expression of 1000+ years of Japanese sword history and sword culture, at least as actual combat use is concerned. There's a lot of variety to collect, and you see that reflected in things like Type 95 prices. While I certainly appreciate antique nihonto and gendaito, and I understand those who prefer to only collect nihonto, I think it's silly the degree to which the wider Western market, especially new military sword collectors, tend to laser-focus on "traditional" vs "non-traditional" as the end-all-be-all. New posters come here all the time asking "is this traditional" and often leave unjustifiably disappointed when it's not, even if their sword is quite nice. A high-class showato in custom mounts or a minty Type 94 zoheito can (should) easily command more than a munitions-grade shinto mumei wakizashi in late-war Type 98 fittings. Some dealers call any sword with an old blade a "family blade" or "heirloom blade," but, ironically, many were cheap swords bought/collected from the public for the war effort because the contemporary showato were in short supply and unaffordable. I've only been collecting Japanese military swords for about two years, but I was collecting WWII firearms about 15 years ago and I've seen what has happened to gunto prices in that time, especially NCO swords. I don't think that trend is going to reverse anytime soon. So I think the audience for showa gunto is whoever has the good sense to grab them now while you still can. 5 2 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 4 hours ago, Peter Bleed said: Ohmura-sama's presentations shows that some Japanese collectors are interested in military fittings. Peter, I'll have to do some rooting around on Ohmura's site, but he has a page where he strongly agues that WWII swords, showato, were simply the latest evolution of the Japanese sword and deserve respect from the sword community as the latest version of Nihon (Japan) To (sword). Now, whether he has made a dent in Japan or not, I cannot say. Guys that live there, and guys that live among the NTHK & NBTHK worlds would have more of a feel for that. I would echo Robert's point about the slowly growing number of war swords that are getting papered. A crack has opened in the nihonto dam and trickles of WWII swords are slowly leaking through. I'm flattered that you mention my work, but seriously there are many of us who are pressing hard into this part of Sword World. I do have an appreciation for all those who work hard to uphold traditions of any kind, whether that be swords, or hand made cakes, or ballroom dancing. But I can vouch for the fact that many commercially made cakes i have eaten were pretty darn good; and the majority of people prefer dancing of almost everything else but ballroom. Maybe time and public attention will turn the tide on recognition for the merits of WWII swords. 2 1 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 @Peter Bleed ""Machine made" blades seem not to be legal in modern Japan," Yahoo!オークション - 陸軍軍刀拵え入 「濃州関住服... https://new.uniqueja...katana-gunto-katana/ Couple of stamped, oil tempered, 'machine made' army blades in Japan with legal torokusho right there. First one is on Yahoo! Auctions at this moment. Second was sold by Unique Japan a while back - with bonus BS thrown for good measure. 1 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 12 minutes ago, KungFooey said: Couple of stamped, oil tempered army blades in Japan with legal torokusho right there. I could see the obliterated Showa stamp on the Ichinori. Couldn't make one out on that first one, though. Thanks for the links, Dee! Quote
SteveM Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 Unique Japan mistranslated that mei. It should be 兼松一則 (Kanematsu Kazunori). 1 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said: I could see the obliterated Showa stamp on the Ichinori. Couldn't make one out on that first one, though. Thanks for the links, Dee! You're most welcome Bruce! Thar she blows! ⬇️ 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 11 minutes ago, KungFooey said: Thar she blows! ⬇️ Dang, that's really messed up! It's not normal to see a stamp right in the mei, but I have seen it before. The prefecture isn't even readable due to the effort to obliterate the stamp. 1 Quote
GeorgeLuucas Posted January 8 Report Posted January 8 My guess is the top half remnant of a damaged showa stamp. Looks like some green buildup around there too. How conveniently obscured that part of the image is . I think wartime showato are really interesting from a militaria collector standpoint. Being able to learn about individual smiths and their lives around the war is always interesting. The Fuller and Gregory books and softcover material has gone up in price A LOT. It took me a while to find them at a price I could manage. Maybe another sign of increased interest and popularity. All the best, -Sam 2 Quote
Peter Bleed Posted January 8 Author Report Posted January 8 Well, gee, I have learned a lot. My basic aim was to argue that American and Western "collectors" have assembled information on the recent history of Japanese swords that (I thought) was outside the view of Japanese sword "aesthetes." My horizons have been widened. Thank you Dee, Steve, and Bruce. I imagine that collectors will have to decide what is interesting and desirable. I bet it will also be a while before there are displays of gunto at the Sword Museum. In 100 years I also bet there will be judgements made about exactly how Showa stamps and Seki marks were treated and which variations are "desirable." But when will Fuller and Gregory be awarded a Sacred Treasure? Peter 4 Quote
KungFooey Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 Hi Peter, To expand your horizons even further, you could take a look at this old thread I found. It has an oil tempered Showato with stamp removed that got NBTHK hozon. 😳 Dee NBTHK Showato? - General Nihonto Related Discussion - Nihonto Message Board 1 1 Quote
Peter Bleed Posted January 9 Author Report Posted January 9 Dee, thank you for this recollection. Clearly, in addition to world-wide interest in 'militaria' there seems to be an audience for well-made recent military blades in Japan. There should be respect for historical items ( I'm trying to tap dance around bunka-zai). I completely do NOT understand the removal of star stamps. The NBTHK is - let's remember - about "art swords" so leadership on this issue may have to come from another organization. It may well be that leadership in this area well have to come from collectors outside of Japan. Peter 2 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 Not to get your thread off track, Peter, but I did find the thread about papered Mantetsu. Here: In the four pages you'll see 2 Koa Isshin that recieved Hozon papers, both Spring 1941 blades; one KA 89, the other RE 476. I believe there are a couple other examples of non-stamped WWII blades with papers, too. You can go directly to them with these links: Koa Isshin RE 476 Papered - Japanese-sword-katana.jp Koa Isshin KA 89 Papered - Japanese-sword-katana.jp Quote
Polaria Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 I think the situation as it stand now is purely a question of time. Showato were produced for the war in huge numbers and it wasn't THAT long ago. As long as there is plenty to go around and with fakes flooding the market it is easy to dismiss them categorically. The fact that you CAN get a non-traditional gunto papered is a good indication that times will change and someday these last examples of Japanese sword made for actual combat will get the recognition they deserve. 1 Quote
Volker62 Posted January 9 Report Posted January 9 For us here in Europe, the honorable Mr. Han Bing Siong has contrbuted greatly to shedding light on the darkness of the Japanese Military sword....... 5 Quote
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