Questions about Tanto

[sc72]

I would like to ask something...

I have heard of some Tantos made by shortening the katana or wakizashi blade...

it was a widespread practice even in the past (Edo or before?) to obtain a Tanto in this way...

if the blade is good and beautiful as metal can it be of value?

Should the signature under the handle of a tanto obtained from shortening necessarily be false GIMEI?

thank you

[oli]

i would say not very common. Shortened to Wakizashi sure, but to Tanto i don't think so.

[sc72]

To understand when the shortening was done, is it useful to see the holes, whether they were hammered or drilled? Does it change in the evaluation of the tanto? what does this look like?

[Brian]

I don't think katana or wakizashi were deliberately shortened to tanto. Especially if they were shinogi zukuri, which looks awkward in a tanto. May have been done if a long sword broke, but not as a matter of course.

[sc72]

To understand when the shortening was done, is it useful to see the holes, whether they were hammered or drilled? Does it change in the evaluation of the tanto? what does this look like?

[sc72]

sorry for big writing mistake 

[sc72]

I see a Tanto with muromachi blade (with "Bo-hi") ...it could be (it is only a suspect ...with my imagination) katana or wakizashi spear (shortened) but in this case with boshi "worked and smoothed"...because the "bo-hi" ends first gradually and not like on the katana. It could be good?

[oli]

technically they could be possible shortened Hira-zukuri Wakizashi or Sunnobi Tanto. Example: https://www.toukenko...&katana_A071023.html if the suriage makes i smaller than 30cm.

[sc72]

yes it is...and so?

[sc72]

buy or not buy it? 

[sc72]

the signature in this case it could be easy  GIMEI?

[Matsunoki]

If you don’t know what you are buying, don’t buy it. Show us images and then we can help you. 

[sc72]

 

[oli]

Images are not so god, and i don't see suriage.....

[Jussi Ekholm]

To me it looks like a late Muromachi Mino piece signed 兼道 (Kanemichi).

[sc72]

yes it is

[sc72]

[sc72]

27 cm circa...it should be considered a Tanto

[Brian]

That's a standard tanto, I don't see anything shortened there. 2 Ana, maybe mounted twice.

[Matsunoki]

As Brian says…..normal Tanto, as Jussi says looks Mino with Mei Kanemichi and most likely late Koto. 
Here are the Hawleys entries out of interest .

As for whether to buy or not, depends on if you like/want it and if you think the price is acceptable. 
Do you know which of the two ana are being used with this koshirae?

 

 

[Jacques]

3 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

To me it looks like a late Muromachi Mino piece signed 兼道 (Kanemichi).

+1

[sc72]

Thank to all for your help

[Tcat]

On 1/3/2025 at 10:24 AM, Jussi Ekholm said:

To me it looks like a late Muromachi Mino piece signed 兼道 (Kanemichi).

Request for learning opportunity - Why do we say the sword is signed “兼道” when it is signed “魚道” surely... I know both the first characters are pronounced “kane”.

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Alex, sorry to be blunt but it isn't. 

 

For some reason, when 兼 (this is the correct kanji) is chiselled on swords, it looks like it does above on the tang - maybe it's hard to chisel all of the strokes correctly when it needs to be relatively small. If you look at Markus Sesko's Compendium (it's a free download in the research secton of the Nihonto Info at the top of the page) it lists kanji used in sword inscriptions and there are progressively more cursive versions of this kanji and the final one is similar to the one above - it's near the top of the 10 stroke kanji list.

 

Edit: sorry, here's the link. https://markussesko....ntocompendium-e1.pdf

[Tcat]

33 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Alex, sorry to be blunt but it isn't. 

Are you absolutely sure of that? 🤔

 

Sorry to be blunt, but the character chiseled on that sword looks *nothing* like the one you’ve pointed me to in Sesko’s reference. 

 

One stroke is missing because of the mekugiana.
 

I’ll get out my little red pen to illustrate…

 

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Sorry but yes, I'm absolutely sure and I remember that it took me a long while to work it out. Please excuse my flippancy, but in what way is 魚道 "fish street" an auspicious name for a swordsmith?

 

Edit: Here's a Kanemitsu blade on Aoi with the same kanji as on the OP's blade on the tang and 兼 written above it.

 

[Tcat]

1 hour ago, Shugyosha said:

Sorry but yes, I'm absolutely sure and I remember that it took me a long while to work it out. Please excuse my flippancy, but in what way is 魚道 "fish street" an auspicious name for a swordsmith?

Sorry but the swordsmith’s correct name may be “兼道” but this sword, like many others, is purposefully signed “魚道”. It is not an accident that it looks as much like “fish” as possible.  Much more like “fish” than anything else, so we can deduce that its 100% intentional. Which makes me wonder why we refer to the signature as  “兼道” when in fact it is signed to look like “魚道”, intentionally.
 

I guess it is a stylistic choice but I wonder why we don’t just call it what it is. Kanemitsu (a lot of them) did it too.

 

 

[Shugyosha]

I guess we're going to have to beg to differ on this one, however, here's a link to the fish kanji on Jisho and you'll see that it lists the various readings for it. Kane isn't amongst them.

 

https://jisho.org/search/魚 %23kanji

 

If you can find me something to show me I'm wrong, please post it as this is one thing I've known or thought I've known for so long that I've forgotten where I got it from and took it that it was something that everyone else knew too. Happy to be convinced otherwise if you can do so or maybe someone else will chip in and straighten it out one way or another.

[Tcat]

22 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

I guess we're going to have to beg to differ on this one, however, here's a link to the fish kanji on Jisho and you'll see that it lists the various readings for it. Kane isn't amongst them.

 

https://jisho.org/search/魚 %23kanji

 

You’re quite right about that, it’s not “kane” - my mistake.
However I am still quite hung up on the reason to sign in this manner that looks so much like 魚 as this is clearly intentional.

[Shugyosha]

Perhaps, but I think it's just that once kanji start to get cursive they lose resemblance to what they look like when written in block script. I had the same issue with 正 - when it's written in it's more cursive form (to me) it looks very little like what it is derived from and there's a weird form of 国 that always catches me out. Anyway the world of Nihonto won't crumble into dust either way.