Hagire

[marivo]

Hello, is this "crack"  a so called Hagire or a forging flaw, opening?

Thanks...

 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Ivo,

Not a hagire. It is a slight ware', a very minor flaw.

Grey

[Lewis B]

This a good starter reference for nihonto flaws. 

https://www.Japanese...rdindex.com/kizu.htm

[marivo]

Thanks, I bought my first Tanto. This was on the blade. I did read  the topic about Kizu but wasn't for sure.

Here some pics.

Total lenght is 45 cm

Blade is 28 cm.

 

[Matsunoki]

Technically, a Tanto should have a tsuba….albeit often a very small one. The koshirae your blade is in is more correctly called an Aikuchi (although aikuchi blades are not normally this big). 

[KungFooey]

Technically, 'tanto' simply refers to a blade less than one shaku while aikuchi is a koshirae style.

 

[Matsunoki]

4 minutes ago, KungFooey said:

aikuchi is a koshirae style.

Technically you’re right🙂

[marivo]

So its a Tanto in Aikuchi style Koshirae?    Last couple of weeks I'm diving in the Nihonto swimming pool, learned a lot but can't swim yet.

[Tcat]

3 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Technically, a Tanto should have a tsuba….albeit often a very small one.

 

Technically, this is completely false.

 

1 hour ago, marivo said:

So its a Tanto in Aikuchi style Koshirae? 

 

Yes. Also known as an aikuchi. Aikuchi koshirea can also be used on long swords, such as the famous Kenshin koshirea...

[Matsunoki]

1 minute ago, Tcat said:

Technically, this is completely false.

Please explain…..if it isn’t the presence of a tsuba what differentiates a Tanto koshirae from an aikuchi koshirae?

…..my brain seems to be having trouble today🙂

[Tcat]

5 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

if it isn’t the presence of a tsuba what differentiates a Tanto koshirae from an aikuchi koshirae?

 

Haha, well, a tanto koshirea can be 'aikuchi style' and an aikuchi koshirea can be made for a tanto (which, when the two are combined makes an aikuchi tanto, or simply 'an aikuchi') - but neither implies the other.

 

But that's not what you wrote... What you wrote was - 

 

8 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Technically, a Tanto should have a tsuba….albeit often a very small one. The koshirae your blade is in is more correctly called an Aikuchi (although aikuchi blades are not normally this big). 

 

So, technically this is false. A tanto is a tanto with or without koshirea. Meanhile the koshirea is not called 'an Aikuchi', it is called 'an Aikuchi koshirea'. The tanto becomes becomes 'an aikuchi' when mounted in aikuchi style mounts. Similar (but at the same time, opposite) to how a kozuka is a kozuka and a kogatana is a kogatana but a kogatana mounted in a kozuka is a kogatana.

 

Moving on....a tanto is still a tanto while in shirasaya. Lack of a tanto sized tsuba does not change this fact.

 

A tanto is defined as blah blah shaku in length - you know this. Meanwhile, a tanto in aikuchi koshirea is still a tanto.

 

5 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Please explain…..

 

Done 

[Tsuku]

8 hours ago, marivo said:

So its a Tanto in Aikuchi style Koshirae?    Last couple of weeks I'm diving in the Nihonto swimming pool, learned a lot but can't swim yet.

 

I just want to clarify this because I think the discussion has conflated things a bit.

 

A tantō has a blade less than 1 shaku in length, 30.3 cm. A wakizashi has a blade length of between 1 and 2 shaku, and anything over 2 shaku is a katana or tachi. You said your blade has a length of 28 cm, so it is a tantō.

 

An aikuchi koshirae is one that lacks a tsuba (example). A hamidashi koshirae in comparison has a small tsuba (example).

[Bugyotsuji]

Aikuchi Koshiraé 

= Lip-kissing sword furniture.

[Matsunoki]

Wish I hadn’t used the word “technically”. I’m just used to “old school” thinking. 🙂

I surrender!
….bur…Maybe we talk about sun-nobi Tanto just to cover all bases🙂?

[KungFooey]

14 hours ago, marivo said:

So its a Tanto in Aikuchi style Koshirae?    Last couple of weeks I'm diving in the Nihonto swimming pool, learned a lot but can't swim yet.

Hi Ivo,

 

Yes, you have a hirazukuri (flat sided) tanto in aikuchi koshirae.

 

It will all come together in time! 😉

 

Dee

[Matsunoki]

2 minutes ago, KungFooey said:

Just to confuse you further, you have a hirazukuri (flat sided) wakizashi in aikuchi koshirae.

Now I’m confused….nagasa 28cm…..why are you calling this a wakizashi? Doesn’t look suriage or machi okuri.

[KungFooey]

1 minute ago, Matsunoki said:

Now I’m confused….nagasa 28cm…..why are you calling this a wakizashi? Doesn’t look suriage or machi okuri.

The correction was made before you even replied.

You must have been absolutely itching to pull me up on that one. 😂

[Matsunoki]

🙂

[Tcat]

8 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Wish I hadn’t used the word “technically”. I’m just used to “old school” thinking. 🙂

I surrender!
….bur…Maybe we talk about sun-nobi Tanto just to cover all bases🙂?

 

Technically, sun-nobi 'tanto' are officially considered 'wakizashi' on kanteisho.

 

 

[chi fan wong]

maybe the use of kanji in this case may help clarify the nomenclature used for tanto?

tan=短=short

to=刀=blade

 

刀 can be called to or katana and it simply refers to the blade.  so 短刀 or tanto simply means a short sword.

 

wakizashi is a whole other ball of wax....

[Matsunoki]

3 hours ago, Tcat said:

Technically, sun-nobi 'tanto' are officially considered 'wakizashi' on kanteisho.

Hmmmmm, I think Jacques is perfectly correct. A sun nobi tanto is not and cannot be a Wakizashi. It is a blade that is more than the “usual length” of a Tanto (about 10”?)but less than the maximum length…..

once it goes beyond 1 shaku it is a wak…..technically

….so given  that a sun nobi Tanto is still less than  1 shaku how then can it be a wakizashi?

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

22 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

….so given  that a sun nobi Tanto is still less than 1 shaku how then can it be a wakizashi?

A SUN NOBI TANTO is usually a tiny bit longer than 1 SHAKU, and in past warfare, it was used as a TANTO, not as a WAKIZASHI. This is why collectors like to stay with the TANTO designation. But the NBTHK had to draw a "technical" line, so in the papers, 303 mm is the limit for TANTO.

[Matsunoki]

1 minute ago, ROKUJURO said:

A SUN NOBI TANTO is usually a tiny bit longer than 1 SHAKU,

Not according to Japanese sources. They state it is longer than the usual length (C10”) but still less than I shaku. Ie it is a big Tanto but still within 1 shaku. 
Damned confusion all these official definitions. 
that’s why I like old school thinking from 45 years ago!

[chi fan wong]

maybe the use of kanji can help again.

 

sun=寸=inch

nobi=延=extend

 

so sunnobi simply means extended by 1 "inch", which is not the current english measurement system. its old Japanese which is a bit longer than the english inch.

[Tcat]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Hmmmmm, I think Jacques is perfectly correct. A sun nobi tanto is not and cannot be a Wakizashi.

 

 

Rare occasion when he is quite wrong because he is using a quote from an English language source and using English language terminology which isn’t in fact technically applicable to the subject at hand. He should know better.
 

Swords are measured and classified accordingly in shaku, sun, bu and rin. A sun-nobi tanto is a tanto which exceeds the prescribed length of a tanto by *around* one sun.  That is to say, it looks like a tanto, walks like a tanto and sounds like a tanto, so it is in fact a tanto, which is why we call it a sun-nobi tanto, but the the authorities in their infinite wisdom *officially* record it as wakizashi on kanteisho. Pure semantics and classification debate which is removed from the actual use / technique and application of each type of weapon. Terminology loophole if you will.

[Matsunoki]

Blimey, Jacques is wrong….😳

Anyway, the old ways are the best🙂

[Bugyotsuji]

“The exception proves the rule.”

 

Really interesting subject, and there is much more to it, but Jean and Tcat above have just about deconfused it for us.

 

(Traditional Nihontō classification and modern education committee bureaucratic classifications do not always agree on the fine detail. The latter is based more on mathematics. Most Japanese seem to ride with it when there are two answers.)

[2devnul]

to=刀=blade = KATANA

 

That one is interesting. Furthermore, I heard more the once Japanese calling Wakizashi or Tanto a 'short Katana' in English. Why not using 'short sword' or 'short blade', but using 'short Katana'? That is something I don't understand. 

 

 

[Tcat]

43 minutes ago, 2devnul said:

to=刀=blade = KATANA

 

That one is interesting. Furthermore, I heard more the once Japanese calling Wakizashi or Tanto a 'short Katana' in English. Why not using 'short sword' or 'short blade', but using 'short Katana'? That is something I don't understand. 

 

 

The answer is right there in your post. The character “刀” can be pronounced “tō” or “katana / gatana”  meaning knife, but more accurately, meaning a *single edged blade*. “剑” or Ken is used to refer to double edged blades, hence when you combine the two you get the word 刀剑 or “Tōken”, implying the concept of both single and double edged blades - ie “swords” in general.

The western notion that “katana” specifies a Japanese sword which is longer than both a tanto and a wakizashi but shorter than a tachi or odachi is true but also somewhat of a confusing simplification, enshrined now in classification by kantaisho but one we have become so accustomed to that we overlook it.

 

In essence, what makes a katana a katana is when it’s a single edged Japanese sword which doesn’t fall into any of the other classifications. A “katana” is in fact the least specific of all blade classifications because it simply means it’s *not* defined as any of the others. Katana is the definition you are left with when you eliminate all other possibilities.

 

Modelling knives in Japan are called kogatana, ko is simply 小 meaning small and 刀, meaning “small single edged blade” - exactly the same word as used for the kogatana that fit into kozuka and were carried as part of sword koshirae - but they are not the same thing. 
 

Now… the word 短, tan, which means “short” (as opposed to long) when combined with 刀 makes “Tantō” - the Japanese do not say “Tan-gatana” but they might as well. Short katana is sort of a direct but albeit confusing translation…

 

But it gets weirder.. the earliest Japanese swords referred to as “katana” or gatana were no longer than around the size of a short wakizashi. These katana were the original “side swords” until society started to redefine what a side sword was, and the term wakizashi came much later.

[Bugyotsuji]

There are other expressions out there in use and waiting to be discovered, such as chiisagatana.