Beginner needs some help verifying tsuba.

[Souljah]

Hi,

my name is Michael and I came here through redit. I'm a total beginner, trying to learn about tsuba. Already ordered "Lethal Elegance" by Joe Earle and reading through the topics here. I found some tsuba I like and would appreciate it to get any help with identifying them real or fake. Maybe you can describe why real/fake, so I can learn a little bit. Feel free to give me any advice where to start or what you think about my choice. I'm looking for a decent tsuba to start with. Thx in advance. Merry Christmas.

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Thx

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Michael!

Welcome to this great forum!

The tsuba look real (authentic tsuba) to me (but I could be wrong on some of them, other members will tell you more).

Some of the tsuba have good tagane ato punch marks around the nakago ana (center triangular slot-indicating that the tsuba was hammered with those punch marks to fit the tang of the blade).

And some of the tsuba have sekigane (copper or another metal filler) in the nagako ana indicating that the tsuba was mounted on a blade (probably indicating that the tsuba was mounted on more than one blade).

Also, some of the tsuba show wear marks where the seppa (small copper washers) left their wear marks around the nakago ana (again indicating that the tsuba was mounted on a blade).

Anyway, just my opinion and I could be wrong!

Onward!

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Michael,

Welcome to NMB.

 

I'm with Dan, I think that all of the ones that you have picked are genuine antique tsuba for the reasons that Dan points out. With fake tsuba, they are often cast and the sekigane (metal fitted to the hole for the sword's tang) and the punch marks around it are also cast and it's relatively easy to spot once you've seen a few and they don't show the marks of wear from the washers fitted to fine tune the fit of the tsuba to the handle of the blade.

 

The other thing to look out for is marks left by the casting mold which can show around any holes or open work in the tsuba. Back in the day, the manufacturer would make the plate from forged iron or steel (sorry Dan) and the holes would be made by perforating the plate with a drill and then finished with a saw or file so the holes should not to show any excess metal left there. Also cast tsuba can show a crystaline structure to the metal (particularly with brass) or holes where air bubbles have burst on the surface which isn't there with forged metal and modern steel tends to be uniform in structure so you don't get something called tekkotsu ("iron bones") showing, usually on the rim, and which are evidence that the plate contains metal of varying qualities of hardness and which are eliminated by modern manufacturing processes. Look at the rim on the tsuba immediately above and you can see irregularities in the metal which probably wouldn't be the case with a cast copy or other modern copy.

 

The other thing that leaps out in all of the examples that you have presented above is the quality of each of them which you will come to recognise as your eye develops. Essentially, if something looks like it takes a long time and a great deal of care to produce, then that is a pointer towards it being a genuine tsuba. Take what is (for me) probably the lowest quality example above, the one with the cockerel sitting on a hedge or hurdle: if you look at the hurdle itself, all of the branches and fronds are distinct and sharply defined which must have taken the maker a good deal of time and effort to create, by hand and probably with a hammer and chisel. The same is true of those tsuba above where there is a bird, shell or other element in a different metal to the base-plate. That takes time, skill and effort which isn't there with the fake tsuba.

 

The final thing to say about this hobby is that, to avoid the fakes, buy from reputable dealers who have a website and a trading history and avoid Ebay and the Japanese auction sites until you know what you are looking at. Tsuba with authentication papers are still relatively cheap and that can give reassurance and, of course, you can post stuff on here that you are thinking of purchasing for a sanity check if you need to.

 

 

[Souljah]

Thank you both for taking the time to write in such detail. Im learning a whole bunch of new words. One thing that is really hard to get by is the vocabulary used to describe a tsuba and parts of it. I've chosen the tsubas based on looking for the molding marks and motifs I like. If im lucky, maybe I'll get one of them. But it's impossible for me to determine a fair price.

[Spartancrest]

All the tsuba are correct - I presume they are up for auction on the three Japanese platforms? Mercari - Yahoo - or Jauce. I am not sure if they have appeared on ebay but I would not be surprised to see them turn up there if they were listed with a "buy it now price" on the Japanese sites. I won't post the links to the guards - you don't need extra competition in an auction.  

It is a balancing act posting images of what you may be interested in, between finding out if they are real or tipping other people off to a bargain. But you seem to have a good eye. 

 

One of the designs similar to this:

   you can find other images here  https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44894-antique-show-kozuka/

 

PS.   Merry Christmas !   

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Michael,

Welcome to the wonderful world of tsuba colllecting!

Once you get started, you can't let it go!

Amazng things to figure out and a world of knowledge and expertise awaits you.

Remember that the members of this forum are more than happy to help you out.

For a quick reference to the names and parts of a tsuba I refer you to the below link-

https://www.hanbonfo...ifferent-tsuba-parts

Onward!

 

 

 

[Souljah]

58 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

...But you seem to have a good eye. 

...

 

Pure luck I guess.

 

@Dan tsuba thx for the link, that will help a lot.

[FlorianB]

Hello Michael,

 

I’m primary an iron guy, however a good starter collection - congrats!
Most of those seem to be from late Edo-times, the last one with the insects maybe Meiji, but I’m not an expert.

 

The surface of the one with „cock and bamboo“ seems to have a bluish look, maybe fire damage? But difficult to determine by the pictures alone.

There are clouds of red rust which should be removed with deer antler or bones as soon as possible.

 

Best,
Florian

[Matsunoki]

Well, these are just my opinions/preferences and thus will probably not align with yours (or anyone else’s) . In descending order of desireability……

1. the soft metal tsuba with cranes…..probably the most expensive, nice aesthetic design and good quality inlay

2. dog walker…..possibly the most interesting subject matter, quite amusing but is there some gold (gilded?) inlay missing immediately in front of the dog?

3. sea creatures….the subject matter is always desirable but the design doesn’t really hang together….too fragmented

4. the insects…..just a scattering of assorted insects. No real artistry to the design. Bit boring

5. chickens….terrible condition. Pass. 
 

Cranes win by a long way….for me.

 

[Shugyosha]

I'm with you Colin, the two signed pieces are the most interesting and the one with cranes wins the race.

[Souljah]

2 hours ago, FlorianB said:

Hello Michael,

 

I’m primary an iron guy, however a good starter collection - congrats!

I'm sorry if my post mislead you. Those arent mine. Justed some tsuba I found online and was thinking to bid on.

 

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Well, these are just my opinions/preferences and thus will probably not align with yours (or anyone else’s) . In descending order of desireability……

1. the soft metal tsuba with cranes…..probably the most expensive, nice aesthetic design and good quality inlay

2. dog walker…..possibly the most interesting subject matter, quite amusing but is there some gold (gilded?) inlay missing immediately in front of the dog?

3. sea creatures….the subject matter is always desirable but the design doesn’t really hang together….too fragmented

4. the insects…..just a scattering of assorted insects. No real artistry to the design. Bit boring

5. chickens….terrible condition. Pass. 
 

Thx for your thoughts. It's like that: I see a tsuba and my thoughts go like "oh that looks nice, I like the animals, it looks interesting with the gold". But I see what you mean. From an artistic point of view some of them seam to be more interesting and some less. Didn't think about this kind of things in the first place, now I see.

@Shugyosha same, thx to you too. 

 

Still, and I know it's gonna last forever even if I educate myself, it's hard for me to even guess a price range for such tsuba. Can anybody give me a hint? Just an approximate price range I can start with? Another thing is the condition... It's hard for me to see if it's damaged, just rusty or if it's patina. Sometimes it looks like the carvings have been rubbed away, and I don't know if it's maybe just dirt... I hope you get what I mean. It's hard for me to express my thoughts on a topic I'm not used to.

[Shugyosha]

It's by a fairly well known artist, Otsuryken Shozui of the Hamano school. If you have a google around for tsuba with that name that have authentication papers you'll get an idea of prices - also you'll see other tsuba from this school that might interest you. Sorry, I'm running out the door to do some Christmas stuff but I'm sure others will chip in soon.

 

 

 

 

[Souljah]

I'm gonna do that, thx. 

During my search for tsuba I found this one.

Im not thinking about buying it, but I have a question. It looks real to me, without molding marks, but the tagane ato marks are missing. Is it still possible that it's real and hasn't been mounted on a sword?

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Michael,

I am not sure if that tsuba is an authentic Edo period antique, or if it is a modern copy.  Other members will let you know that.

But, a tsuba does not have to have tagane ato punch marks around the nakago ana.  

The tsuba could have been only used on the blade that it was originally made for - perfect fit, no punch marks necessary!

Or maybe it was never mounted on a blade (possible but probably a rare thing that it was never mounted).

Onward!

[Souljah]

Ah, so the tagane ato punch marks are coming from refitting a tsuba to another blade. Thx again.

[Spartancrest]

http://nihonto.us/MOKUME DM141.htm  carved woodgrain [mokume] 

 

https://galeriasavar...apanese-sword-tsuba/ a "square" version with very close elements.

 

Not uncommon to see the same design on differently shaped tsuba [these two I think are Shoami - as I have a daisho signed Shoami Kanenori with identical carved flower motifs and nunome]

 

 

[Jake6500]

On 12/25/2024 at 12:30 AM, Souljah said:

Hi,

my name is Michael and I came here through redit. I'm a total beginner, trying to learn about tsuba. Already ordered "Lethal Elegance" by Joe Earle and reading through the topics here. I found some tsuba I like and would appreciate it to get any help with identifying them real or fake. Maybe you can describe why real/fake, so I can learn a little bit. Feel free to give me any advice where to start or what you think about my choice. I'm looking for a decent tsuba to start with. Thx in advance. Merry Christmas.

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

 

Thx

 

 

 

 

 

Good start for a beginner, a couple of these pieces you have posted I had been keeping my own eye on, particularly the one of the Tatar noble. As Colin and John have said, the Crane tsuba is the highest quality out of those you have identified in your post.

 

A few general things to try and watch for include quality of base metals, intricacy of linework, and signs of mold casting (often a sign of a later production).

 

As you learn more about different styles/schools of craftmanship you'll get a sense of what is lower and higher quality, what styles you like and what you want to collect.

[Souljah]

Thx for all your help. I found another one I actually like, but it's damaged.

The lower person is damaged, but the whole tsuba looks actually nice I think. How important is the condition? Can you tell me anything about the Mei or the motif? Actually I don't know if it's called Mei, because it looks like a signature, but isn't in the right place. Thx.

[Matsunoki]

12 minutes ago, Souljah said:

How important is the condition?

When inlay is missing it has a massive effect on value. There are many perfect examples available. Don’t buy damaged unless it is very very cheap and you absolutely love it. This one is not a particularly “good” tsuba from a quality perspective.

[Souljah]

Thx, could you try to explain, why it is not good quality wise?

[Matsunoki]

Recognising quality can really only be achieved by studying a great many pieces. You need to develop an “eye” that will tell you immediately how good something is irrespective of what any signature might suggest. It is not easy to explain. However, the fact that a chunk of inlay has fallen off this one is a good indicator plus the figures are crudely done. Does that hat really look like it’s sitting on the child’s head? Does that face look like a good face? Does the placement of the feet look “right”? Is there any detail in Mt Fuji or has the maker just done the bare minimum?

 

if you want to spend time learning I suggest you go onto Bonhams website, search “tsuba” and click on “past lots”. You will have thousands to look at and the actual sold prices will start to give you an insight. Many are sold in multiple lots so make sure you read the descriptions.

 

Sadly there is no short cut. If you want to be able to identify better quality and then start to collect better quality you have to put the hard work in! If on the other hand you just want to collect “tsuba” based purely on what appeals to you then the road ahead is easier but full of pitfalls and traps!! In my opinion, one really good piece gives more pleasure than a box full of crap items. There is one person on here that will not agree with that last statement……wait for it🙂!

[Souljah]

44 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Recognising quality can really only be achieved by studying a great many pieces. You need to develop an “eye” that will tell you immediately how good something is irrespective of what any signature might suggest. It is not easy to explain. However, the fact that a chunk of inlay has fallen off this one is a good indicator plus the figures are crudely done. Does that hat really look like it’s sitting on the child’s head? Does that face look like a good face? Does the placement of the feet look “right”? Is there any detail in Mt Fuji or has the maker just done the bare minimum?

That's what I meant, thx for those hints.

44 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

if you want to spend time learning I suggest you go onto Bonhams website, search “tsuba” and click on “past lots”. You will have thousands to look at and the actual sold prices will start to give you an insight. Many are sold in multiple lots so make sure you read the descriptions.

Thx, I'm gonna do that.

 

44 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Sadly there is no short cut. If you want to be able to identify better quality and then start to collect better quality you have to put the hard work in! If on the other hand you just want to collect “tsuba” based purely on what appeals to you then the road ahead is easier but full of pitfalls and traps!! In my opinion, one really good piece gives more pleasure than a box full of crap items. There is one person on here that will not agree with that last statement……wait for it🙂!

I'm reading different threads in this forum already, and I think you mean Dan. I understand both of you. 

The whole thing depends on the time and money someone is able and willing to spend. That's the same thing with watches. I'm into watches for a long time. Some are collecting cheaper watches and like to have many of them. Some like to collect more expensive ones. Some change the watch they're wearing twice a day, some wear their watch for half a year. Some need many watches, some are happy to have one good watch. What's good enough? That differs from person to person. 

I like to have fewer watches with a decent quality. Through the years I found out what I need to have in a watch and now I'm actually a one watch guy, though I have more than one, but I don't change my watch since I got my last one.

I'm totally new in the world of tsuba and I'm willing to learn, but my time and my money is limited. I've already realized it's possible to look through all the different auctions sites for hours...

My thoughts on this, and on the watch topic is, and on all other topics by the way, everyone is different and has different preferences, different possibilities.

I'm against gate keeping of all kinds. I respect the guy who likes to collect Chinese watches and the one who likes to collect a.lange. I don't have to understand why, as long as someone is having fun , it's fine.

 

Actually it's the same with quality of watches. Someone who's new won't see a difference between a 200 and a 5000 Dollar watch. You need hints what to look for and the experience of handling different watches in person to realize the differences.

 

 

Edit: I'm already browsing Bonhams and found a lot of 5 tsuba sold for 70k and another one with 4 tsuba sold for 5k. One can see a clear difference between those two lots. Thx for the tip.

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Souljah said:

I found another one

 

https://www.the-sale...7c-a757-b18b0108f44a

 

   

Well Michael the one you found is far superior to this one and you will find this one in one of the worlds biggest Museums - The V&A     https://collections..../item/O462106/tsuba/

 

This similar piece sold back in 2010 for £840. Part of the Edward Wrangham collection. There was yet another of the same design recently with a red copper flag but I can't lay my hands on that image yet.

 

 

[zanilu]

I personally stick to the principle of having a fewer number of good quality pieces compared to a large number of low quality ones.

Unless you handle good pieces it is very difficult to develop a real feel for quality. 

On this forum you will find a good deal of them and experienced people willing to guide you in the process.

 

Be prepared to make mistakes, I did as my junkbox box reminds me too often...

 

Regards

Luca

[Spartancrest]

Michael another "man and his dog" example also from the Edward Wrangham collection.  That one sold for £2,280 also back in 2010

[Jake6500]

11 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Michael another "man and his dog" example also from the Edward Wrangham collection.  That one sold for £2,280 also back in 2010

 

I do think the quality/condition of this one appears to be a touch better than the one currently on Jauce, yet the Jauce listing is at a similar price! (Well, not quite given the currency conversion, but it's still a lot!)

 

The price point is the main reason I decided I'm passing it up...

 

Also, I believe these tsuba may depict the use of European hunting dogs by Tatar or Russian nobles... The dog would be a Borzoi for small to medium game.