Beginner needs some help verifying tsuba.

[Souljah]

Hi,

my name is Michael and I came here through redit. I'm a total beginner, trying to learn about tsuba. Already ordered "Lethal Elegance" by Joe Earle and reading through the topics here. I found some tsuba I like and would appreciate it to get any help with identifying them real or fake. Maybe you can describe why real/fake, so I can learn a little bit. Feel free to give me any advice where to start or what you think about my choice. I'm looking for a decent tsuba to start with. Thx in advance. Merry Christmas.

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Thx

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Michael!

Welcome to this great forum!

The tsuba look real (authentic tsuba) to me (but I could be wrong on some of them, other members will tell you more).

Some of the tsuba have good tagane ato punch marks around the nakago ana (center triangular slot-indicating that the tsuba was hammered with those punch marks to fit the tang of the blade).

And some of the tsuba have sekigane (copper or another metal filler) in the nagako ana indicating that the tsuba was mounted on a blade (probably indicating that the tsuba was mounted on more than one blade).

Also, some of the tsuba show wear marks where the seppa (small copper washers) left their wear marks around the nakago ana (again indicating that the tsuba was mounted on a blade).

Anyway, just my opinion and I could be wrong!

Onward!

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Michael,

Welcome to NMB.

 

I'm with Dan, I think that all of the ones that you have picked are genuine antique tsuba for the reasons that Dan points out. With fake tsuba, they are often cast and the sekigane (metal fitted to the hole for the sword's tang) and the punch marks around it are also cast and it's relatively easy to spot once you've seen a few and they don't show the marks of wear from the washers fitted to fine tune the fit of the tsuba to the handle of the blade.

 

The other thing to look out for is marks left by the casting mold which can show around any holes or open work in the tsuba. Back in the day, the manufacturer would make the plate from forged iron or steel (sorry Dan) and the holes would be made by perforating the plate with a drill and then finished with a saw or file so the holes should not to show any excess metal left there. Also cast tsuba can show a crystaline structure to the metal (particularly with brass) or holes where air bubbles have burst on the surface which isn't there with forged metal and modern steel tends to be uniform in structure so you don't get something called tekkotsu ("iron bones") showing, usually on the rim, and which are evidence that the plate contains metal of varying qualities of hardness and which are eliminated by modern manufacturing processes. Look at the rim on the tsuba immediately above and you can see irregularities in the metal which probably wouldn't be the case with a cast copy or other modern copy.

 

The other thing that leaps out in all of the examples that you have presented above is the quality of each of them which you will come to recognise as your eye develops. Essentially, if something looks like it takes a long time and a great deal of care to produce, then that is a pointer towards it being a genuine tsuba. Take what is (for me) probably the lowest quality example above, the one with the cockerel sitting on a hedge or hurdle: if you look at the hurdle itself, all of the branches and fronds are distinct and sharply defined which must have taken the maker a good deal of time and effort to create, by hand and probably with a hammer and chisel. The same is true of those tsuba above where there is a bird, shell or other element in a different metal to the base-plate. That takes time, skill and effort which isn't there with the fake tsuba.

 

The final thing to say about this hobby is that, to avoid the fakes, buy from reputable dealers who have a website and a trading history and avoid Ebay and the Japanese auction sites until you know what you are looking at. Tsuba with authentication papers are still relatively cheap and that can give reassurance and, of course, you can post stuff on here that you are thinking of purchasing for a sanity check if you need to.

 

 

[Souljah]

Thank you both for taking the time to write in such detail. Im learning a whole bunch of new words. One thing that is really hard to get by is the vocabulary used to describe a tsuba and parts of it. I've chosen the tsubas based on looking for the molding marks and motifs I like. If im lucky, maybe I'll get one of them. But it's impossible for me to determine a fair price.

[Spartancrest]

All the tsuba are correct - I presume they are up for auction on the three Japanese platforms? Mercari - Yahoo - or Jauce. I am not sure if they have appeared on ebay but I would not be surprised to see them turn up there if they were listed with a "buy it now price" on the Japanese sites. I won't post the links to the guards - you don't need extra competition in an auction.  

It is a balancing act posting images of what you may be interested in, between finding out if they are real or tipping other people off to a bargain. But you seem to have a good eye. 

 

One of the designs similar to this:

   you can find other images here  https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44894-antique-show-kozuka/

 

PS.   Merry Christmas !   

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Michael,

Welcome to the wonderful world of tsuba colllecting!

Once you get started, you can't let it go!

Amazng things to figure out and a world of knowledge and expertise awaits you.

Remember that the members of this forum are more than happy to help you out.

For a quick reference to the names and parts of a tsuba I refer you to the below link-

https://www.hanbonfo...ifferent-tsuba-parts

Onward!

 

 

 

[Souljah]

58 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

...But you seem to have a good eye. 

...

 

Pure luck I guess.

 

@Dan tsuba thx for the link, that will help a lot.

[FlorianB]

Hello Michael,

 

I’m primary an iron guy, however a good starter collection - congrats!
Most of those seem to be from late Edo-times, the last one with the insects maybe Meiji, but I’m not an expert.

 

The surface of the one with „cock and bamboo“ seems to have a bluish look, maybe fire damage? But difficult to determine by the pictures alone.

There are clouds of red rust which should be removed with deer antler or bones as soon as possible.

 

Best,
Florian

[Matsunoki]

Well, these are just my opinions/preferences and thus will probably not align with yours (or anyone else’s) . In descending order of desireability……

1. the soft metal tsuba with cranes…..probably the most expensive, nice aesthetic design and good quality inlay

2. dog walker…..possibly the most interesting subject matter, quite amusing but is there some gold (gilded?) inlay missing immediately in front of the dog?

3. sea creatures….the subject matter is always desirable but the design doesn’t really hang together….too fragmented

4. the insects…..just a scattering of assorted insects. No real artistry to the design. Bit boring

5. chickens….terrible condition. Pass. 
 

Cranes win by a long way….for me.

 

[Shugyosha]

I'm with you Colin, the two signed pieces are the most interesting and the one with cranes wins the race.

[Souljah]

2 hours ago, FlorianB said:

Hello Michael,

 

I’m primary an iron guy, however a good starter collection - congrats!

I'm sorry if my post mislead you. Those arent mine. Justed some tsuba I found online and was thinking to bid on.

 

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

Well, these are just my opinions/preferences and thus will probably not align with yours (or anyone else’s) . In descending order of desireability……

1. the soft metal tsuba with cranes…..probably the most expensive, nice aesthetic design and good quality inlay

2. dog walker…..possibly the most interesting subject matter, quite amusing but is there some gold (gilded?) inlay missing immediately in front of the dog?

3. sea creatures….the subject matter is always desirable but the design doesn’t really hang together….too fragmented

4. the insects…..just a scattering of assorted insects. No real artistry to the design. Bit boring

5. chickens….terrible condition. Pass. 
 

Thx for your thoughts. It's like that: I see a tsuba and my thoughts go like "oh that looks nice, I like the animals, it looks interesting with the gold". But I see what you mean. From an artistic point of view some of them seam to be more interesting and some less. Didn't think about this kind of things in the first place, now I see.

@Shugyosha same, thx to you too. 

 

Still, and I know it's gonna last forever even if I educate myself, it's hard for me to even guess a price range for such tsuba. Can anybody give me a hint? Just an approximate price range I can start with? Another thing is the condition... It's hard for me to see if it's damaged, just rusty or if it's patina. Sometimes it looks like the carvings have been rubbed away, and I don't know if it's maybe just dirt... I hope you get what I mean. It's hard for me to express my thoughts on a topic I'm not used to.

[Shugyosha]

It's by a fairly well known artist, Otsuryken Shozui of the Hamano school. If you have a google around for tsuba with that name that have authentication papers you'll get an idea of prices - also you'll see other tsuba from this school that might interest you. Sorry, I'm running out the door to do some Christmas stuff but I'm sure others will chip in soon.

 

 

 

 

[Souljah]

I'm gonna do that, thx. 

During my search for tsuba I found this one.

Im not thinking about buying it, but I have a question. It looks real to me, without molding marks, but the tagane ato marks are missing. Is it still possible that it's real and hasn't been mounted on a sword?

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Michael,

I am not sure if that tsuba is an authentic Edo period antique, or if it is a modern copy.  Other members will let you know that.

But, a tsuba does not have to have tagane ato punch marks around the nakago ana.  

The tsuba could have been only used on the blade that it was originally made for - perfect fit, no punch marks necessary!

Or maybe it was never mounted on a blade (possible but probably a rare thing that it was never mounted).

Onward!

[Souljah]

Ah, so the tagane ato punch marks are coming from refitting a tsuba to another blade. Thx again.

[Spartancrest]

http://nihonto.us/MOKUME DM141.htm  carved woodgrain [mokume] 

 

https://galeriasavar...apanese-sword-tsuba/ a "square" version with very close elements.

 

Not uncommon to see the same design on differently shaped tsuba [these two I think are Shoami - as I have a daisho signed Shoami Kanenori with identical carved flower motifs and nunome]