WEIRD MONSTER WAKAZASHI

katanako · January 22, 2010

I have a super sized "Monster" wakazashi and I would like to know exactly what it is.

It has the kissaki and boshi of a katana, but it has a thick and wide blade! I will attempt to attach some pics here. The mei is signed OZAKI GENGOEMON FUJIWARA SUKETAKA, and in my 1981 Hawley book, it is under SUK525, circa 1790. It could be a gemei. The blade is 27 inches.

Is it a Nagamaki? Perhaps a Nagamaki fashioned into a wak? I can't imagine a warrior using it for sword fighting. This blade was made for chopping/butchering, perhaps by a foot warrior chopping down a horseman in combat, or ???

How rare is this type of blade? It has a nice habaki and is in shirasaya. Would this blade originally have had a regular tsuka, or would it have been mounted on a pole like a Naginata?

I've never run across something like this.

Thank you very much.

KATANAKO

Death-Ace · January 22, 2010

Perhaps it was used by George Foreman's Asian ancestors. :D

Aren't Nagamakis generally widen towards the kissaki?

Jacques · January 22, 2010

Hi,

27 inches long is a katana not a wakizashi, however, the shape looks standard for a shinshinto blade, and at first sight it seems gimei.

Bazza · January 22, 2010

Hi,

27 inches long is a katana not a wakizashi, however, the shape looks standard for a shinshinto blade, and at first sight it seems gimei.

Jacques,

I think he means 27 inches overall, not nagasa. This reminds me of an 'eviscerator' Suketaka kowakizashi a friend of mine has. It would seem to support the notion that Suketaka occasionally produced "outlandish" blades (for want of a better name). I have some pictures somewhere, I think?? I'll have a look and put them up for the sake of the discussion.

Bestests,

BaZZa.

pcfarrar · January 22, 2010

The Satsuma schools made a lot of oversized wakizashi. I have one signed Sasshu ju Tadakane in crew gunto mounts. The kasane is over 1cm thick and the blade very wide.

IanB · January 22, 2010

I have seen one or two similar sized blades in the past. One I recollect, in shirasaya, was hirazukuri and had the most amazing horimono down both sides. With such a vast area to cut into, the artist had included dragons and Buddhist images in profusion. I'm afraid I cannot recall the maker ( it was 30 odd years ago). My conclusion was that these oversized blades may have been made for presentation to sumo wrestlers. Slightly corroborating this, was a giant pipe, case and tobacco pounch a friend in the US had - obviously made to swagger around with.

Ian Bottomley

Bazza · January 22, 2010

Well, it's Big Blade Time... I remember an O-tanto a friend had over 35 years ago. It had a horimono of a snake, and the opinion at the time was that it was cut by a mirror maker rather than a horimono-shi. This blade was copiously signed and I think made by a member of the Tokugawa family as a hobby piece. I have an oshigata somewhere... A friend currently has a HUGE (well, quite larger than usual) hirazukuri kowakizashi signed DOI SHINRYO. The koshirae is of "workman-like" standard with plain iron tosogu (hamidashi tsuba) with gomokuzogan decoration all with a black-lacquered saya. It came with the story that it was a Sumo wrestler's sword, giving credence to Ian's story above. This DOI is a magnificent piece of workmanship, in superb condition (needs another polish though) and gives a real thrill just to hold it. Another friend has a HUGE - and here I mean BIG - katana by MUSASHI TARO YASUKUNI. It is a presentation sword to a temple with gilt mon - a HOTO, I think.

Ah well, enough from an Old Bloke for one day...

Bestests,

BaZZa.

Jean · January 22, 2010

I have seen a splendid Hizen Yukihiro in this style incredibly thick, large and stout (wakizashi)

FlorianB · January 22, 2010

Katanoko,

please be so kind and specify the measurement of the blade (nagasa, mihaba, kasane). A large dimensioned blade isn't unusual for Shin-Shinto and without any proper description it is difficult to judge just by the pictures alone. In the first picture I even got the impression that the blade becomes broader towards the monouchi - THIS would be rather unusual.

Some more pictures showing the hada and hamon would help,too, - I can see just a long kaeri, which indeed hints to Suketaka.

Concerning the mei I've got my doubts, especially the third kanji from below looks curious, but I'll have to do some research.

Florian

george trotter · January 22, 2010

Hi all...again, as an old geezer dredging up 30 year old memories, I recall a huge tachi on display in either Okayama or Kurashiki (I think). Perfect shape and dimensions except overall it was approaching 2 metres. Spectacular choji hamon and I think made as an offering by one of the Bizen Yokoyama smiths. This may be why the two HUGE wakizashis mentioned were made (although I think the tachi may have been for a temple). In addition, I have seen (maybe just in photos...can't remember) a perfectly proportioned copy of the Masamune tanto (the one with cut out ken horimomo?) and its size is certainly much too large to carry and use. I don't know the answer for these things, but must be partly "self advertising" of the swordsmiths skill as well as serving the purpose of a meaningful effort for a presentation item.

Regards,

George.

Markus · January 22, 2010

I agree with Ian on this one. I saw a couple of oversized blades (tanto, wakizashi

and tachi) which were presented to sumo wrestlers.

Eric H · January 22, 2010

It's nothing else but a clumsy heavily made Wakizashi and most likely as already mentioned intended to be carried by a Sumo-wrestler. Their attitude for oversized objects like Inro, Netsuke, Tabaccoire is well known. Easy to see that it is a gimei.

Eric

FlorianB · January 22, 2010

Checking about two dozens of Ozaki Suketaka's mei by different resources I can confirm it's a gimei - and, alas, not even cleverly done.

Eric's pictures display a grass style writing, Suketaka also inscribed his signatures with more formal kanji. However, this wakizashi signature seems to be an odd mixture of both.

Florian

Bazza · January 22, 2010

Hi all...again, as an old geezer dredging up 30 year old memories.

OLD GEEZER - AARRGH - dagger to me heart... I certainly resemble that remark!!

Does anybody remember the katana-size tanto is the Ashmolean Exhibition of (ahem, coff coff) 40-ish years ago??? Perfectly proportioned, gold-lacquered saya, far too big to wear. A devotional piece?? A tour-de-force for an artisan group??

BaZZa.

katanako · January 23, 2010

Thank you Eric! You have confirmed that my Monster Wak is gimei. Still, it is very interesting.

I really appreciate everyone's imput!!!

Thanks again to all of you!

KATANAKO

IanB · January 23, 2010

Bazza, Yes I remember that tanto in Oxford - that brings back memories and the uncomfortable realisation how old I'm getting. It was a momentous trip to Oxford for me. Travelling overnight in my Dad's old van and arriving in Oxford in the early hours and then trying to geta bit of sleep before the museum opened. One good thing that day was a wander off into the environs of the museum and finding a superb katana in an antique shop about 200 yards away. In there was a superb katana I bought with a blade by Ippo in the ichimonji style and a tsuba by Yokoya Somin. The fuchi /gashira were shakudo nanako with just a gold moon peeping from clouds on the kashira. Although unsigned, I thought Goto. The scabbard was of longitudinal strips of polished and black lacquered same set in red textured lacquer. Looked like something out of 'bad women's bedroom' but the quality was superb. Wish I still had it but it had to go about two years later when I had to sell stuff to pay the rates.

Ian Bottomley

george trotter · January 23, 2010

Dear Ian,

As gentlemen I'm sure Bazza and I don't know what a "bad woman's bedroom" looks like...we would perhaps describe the fittings as "gaudy as a Satsuma samurai" :-)

BTW the earlier comment "...it's a gimei...and not even cleverly done" suggests that there was no serious intent to deceive?

Regards George

Eric H · January 23, 2010

"...it's a gimei...and not even cleverly done" suggests that there was no serious intent to deceive?

A fake whatever kind is always made on purpose. This is undoubtedly an intentionally but poorly and unskilled executed mei. Aside this the expected workmanship of Ozaki Suketaka is not represented in this Wakizashi with straight hamon. I have never seen a shape like this becoming noticeably broader against the kissaki, assumed the pic doesn't baffle, lacking a harmonious shape. I could imagine that the blade has been mended due to a severe damage, thus loosing a large part of the original shape. This would also explain the difference in width of the yakiba.

Ozaki Suketaka's workmanship shows the common characteristics of the Shinshinto time and his O-Toranba comes next to Sukehiro. The oshigata I have added is such an example. The "square" bottom lines between the waves is a typical trait he is known for.

Eric

george trotter · January 24, 2010

Hi Eric,

Yes I agree with what you say...a gimei is always deliberate...but what is the purpose?...to deceive? When the shape, kitau, hamon are completely and obviously so different from Suketaka Gengoemon, what is the purpose of signing such an obviously different work with his name? It would be like putting a Rolls Royce badge on the front of a Ford truck...would anyone seriously believe it is a Rolls Royce? What is the purpose of gimei-ing so far from credibility, if it is obviously not trying to copy his workmanship? It seems as if another smith who hates Gengoemon made a "Monster Wakizashi" all clumsy and wrong and deliberately put his gimei on it to make a joke about Gengoemon's ability? I am just wondering.

Regards,

George.

Eric H · January 24, 2010

Hi George, now I understand what you intended with your question, but I have no answer, all would be hypothetical.

As for Samurai etiquette, they never let touch their swords at any time by anyone else, except servants who handled storage of swords for guests. No weapon including Tanto was displayed out of scabbard for any reason. The request to see another Samurai's sword required a very good reason, for instance to examine a very famous sword.

Eric

katanako · January 24, 2010

Hi,

I really enjoy reading your comments about my Monster Wak. It is obviously a handforged blade, but I am wondering if it is a modern Gendaito made in the 1900s as a novelty for some sumo wrestler...or a legit Nagamaki which was modified? Thye hamon does narrow down from the kissaki.

Thank you!

KATANAKO

nagamaki - Franco · January 24, 2010

Hello,

a gimei is always deliberate...but what is the purpose?...to deceive? When the shape, kitau, hamon are completely and obviously so different from Suketaka Gengoemon, what is the purpose of signing such an obviously different work with his name? It would be like putting a Rolls Royce badge on the front of a Ford truck...would anyone seriously believe it is a Rolls Royce? What is the purpose of gimei-ing so far from credibility, if it is obviously not trying to copy his workmanship?

' What if ' there was someone back in the time period desiring to own a Suketaka, only this person could not afford a real one? Ah, but this person knew of a sword smith nearby that could make a 'good enough' copy at an affordable price to fool most friends and sword acquaintances, after all, just like today there were probably few that really knew enough about nihonto to know the difference, and for those who did, they would probably be too polite to say anything aloud. The power of desire.

Eric H · January 25, 2010

or a legit Nagamaki which was modified?

katanako, you supposed twice the possibility of a modified Nagamaki. Naginata and/or Nagamaki were cut down and reshaped to Katana or Wakizashi. Calling a blade Naginata or Nagamaki is more ore less semantics, and shouldn't detract from the ultimate goal of judging the quality and not the label of a blade. Generally said a Naginata is forged Kanmuri-otoshi with Naginata-hi and widening Mono-uchi. A Nagamaki usually is longer, slimmer, Shobu-zukuri, without Hi. There are of course exceptions. (G.S.)

Your Wakizashi doesn't fall into this category.

Eric

nagamaki - Franco · January 25, 2010

Hi, in regards to what appears in the image as a distorted shape to this "weird monster wakizashi", my impression, right or wrong, is that this blade might have suffered a chip in the ha a few inches up from the habaki at some point in time, and the polisher/owner simply decided to average out the chip in only a portion of the blade without raising the entire length of the ha as would normally be done to make it all even once again.

katanako · January 26, 2010

Thanks Eric and Franco!

You guys are right on!!!

Thanks for the education.

KATANAKO

Jean · January 27, 2010

Wakizashi can be quite stout. Have a look at this one and the width at the hamachi :

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/09327.html

nagamaki - Franco · January 27, 2010

Bonsoir,

Wakizashi can be quite stout.

By the Shinto period many, if not most, of the monster Nambokucho tachi had already been cut down, and this is what sword smiths of the Edo period were using as models to make new blades.

Jean · January 27, 2010

Franco,

we are not in Keisho but after Kambun, Just stroll around different sites and show me examples where width at hamachi is so large, I have had quite a few shortened Nambokucho tachi but none had this width at hamachi. My Naoe Shizu is quite impressive but measure only 31 mm at hamachi.

By all means, This one being 36.1 mm wide at hamachi and considering its length (less than 50cm), it is an outstanding blade (by measurements).

I have only found a gendai katana example being wider at the hamachi (by merely 0,5 mm!!) and for a 72,6 cm nagasa ......

nagamaki - Franco · January 27, 2010

Jean,

please don't jump to conclusions, these monster wakizashi are by no means common, that is not the impression I wished to give. I'm merely stating that when we do see a monster size wakizashi, and I'll state for clarity "on rare occasion", they are modeled after monster Nambokucho shortened tachi, which are also rare. In person I've seen only 1 wakizashi of this size which was NBTHK papered, signed on the sword itself by a chu jo saku smith, and it was made about the Kambun era (if I recall correctly), this wakizashi also had Buddhist bonji with additional writing that indicated it had been made for a specific shrine. Additionally, I've only seen one Nambokucho tachi, now katana, of this monster size, that was O suriage but still 29" long. One reason we do not see monster swords for sale on the internet is because most of these unusually large pieces remain tightly held by private collectors, and when they do become available they change hands privately. Still, we do see hefty size wakizashi in the shinto period and later because, again, they were copying shortened Nambokucho period swords which were hefty, but not all of monster size.