You general taste - Opinion on this Mumei blade - Hamon but Especially Jihada

[BKB5]

I have generally (to date) not cared as much for suguha hamon as more for the "active", "storm-like" styles with choji midare, dark, deep utsuri, etc. - as such I have 2 fine swords: "Yukihiro" Katana and an Ozaki Suketaka Wakizashi. Both I LOVE and am quite happy to own them. Both have the super tight "Hizen-Hada" - rice grain pattern I believe it's referred to. Both blades have beautiful and fiery hamons. The Wazikashi is amazing. **Newer learner/collectors probably like the wilder looking blades at first (That is me).

I was advised "well, given a suggestion" - to develop a taste through study of Koto swords with sugaha homon. It's harder to get right by smiths, many Juyo and finer blades will have such. Like a fine wine learn as much as you can about these blades - especially if you will move into Juyo Aquisition in the future.

This Mumei Blade length: 68.0 cm
Sori: 2.0 cm 
Width at base: 2.87 cm
Width At Yokote: 1.72 cm
Kasane: 0.68 cm 
weight: 645 g 
Late Kamakura period

I am quite taken by the  Jihada - is it mokume-hada for the most part? What would be a really good way of describing this blade surface?

Is it an attractive and interesting blade to you personally? (Just opinion - be honest if you dont like).
Thanks!!!! Brad

 

[David Flynn]

Very hard to tell from these photo's.  Is this sword from Aoi Art?  If so, what papers does it have and what is the description?

[BKB5]

39 minutes ago, David Flynn said:

Very hard to tell from these photo's.  Is this sword from Aoi Art?  If so, what papers does it have and what is the description?

David I screwed up those photos - here is the word.

The Koshare is in my mind "mind blowing".

 

AS24626 刀: 無銘(和気)(特別保存刀剣) – 日本刀販売の葵美術

[Schneeds]

Believe it was this one: 

https://www.aoijapan...kubetsu-hozon-token/

 

I also like the jihada but I think I see shigane in some areas?  I don't know if thats seen as a negative for this particular attribution or not. In any event someone likes it, it sold.

 

Edit: you posted the auction link at the same time

[BKB5]

4 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

Believe it was this one: 

https://www.aoijapan...kubetsu-hozon-token/

 

It sold.

It was me - I am the new owner (at a high price, but the blade, reassuring correspondence (AOI Art has always been top notch to me), and the fact that I may switch out this high end Tsuba - if just a teak as I am a jewelry maker) combined with the age and that stunning polish and vivid jihahda won me over.

[Schneeds]

Congratulations!

[Tcat]

Does hamon run off at kissaki...

[Schneeds]

3 minutes ago, Tcat said:

Does hamon run off at kissaki...

I don't have photoshop on the phone here but I think that's angle of light and photography. The Oshigata shows it does not and I can't believe AOI would try to pull something like that. 

[BKB5]

9 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

I don't have photoshop on the phone here but I think that's angle of light and photography. The Oshigata shows it does not and I can't believe AOI would try to pull something like that. 

Yeah, the Oshigata looks to have Hamon on the Kissaki, a slight bit running ober on one side and zero on the other. The sharp photos of the Kissaki show a dead stop at the Yokote.

 

Shneeds - should the hamon on this blade stop dead cold at the kissaki on both sides? At the Yokote?

 

I will simply ask for a clear answer and photo. Have not paid a dime. I love the sword but if there is something dead wrong on the attrition - I want to know and deal with it with Art.

 

 

 

[Schneeds]

I'm not knowledgeable enough for these kinds of questions but I don't think I see anything worrying.  It's also TH which it would not have if the hamon ran off.  Others will make far better observations. 

[Tcat]

Use your eyes and your knowledge above any and all papers and certainly above any and all dealer descriptions. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. The photos are there for all to see, and I see no hamon at the tip of the kissaki, and certainly no turnback. Good luck.

[nulldevice]

55 minutes ago, BKB5 said:

Yeah, the Oshigata looks to have Hamon on the Kissaki, a slight bit running ober on one side and zero on the other. The sharp photos of the Kissaki show a dead stop at the Yokote.

 

Shneeds - should the hamon on this blade stop dead cold at the kissaki on both sides? At the Yokote?

 

I will simply ask for a clear answer and photo. Have not paid a dime. I love the sword but if there is something dead wrong on the attrition - I want to know and deal with it with Art.

 

 

 

The photos don’t show a great angle for the boshi. It kind of looks like it may run off but the lighting and angle isn’t ideal for the boshi in any of the photos so I see what Tcat is saying.

 

The oshigata doesn’t really show much either. It shows the boshi but it doesn’t really turn back towards the mune. I tried to compare the oshigata side by side with the blade pics but I think more pictures will be required. Sometimes the hamon runs right close to the edge but still stays in tact on older swords that have seen a few polishes. But it shouldn’t run off the blade.

[Rivkin]

In my limited experience, recent NBTHK papers to "Wake" have a decent chance of being challenged. Basically its a small Kamakura period group that sometimes forged with stand out mokume hada not unlike some of Aoe works, sometimes did very ko Ichimonji looking quiet style with indistinct itame jigane, you have suguha-notare, you have saki choji, and at times you have both on the same blade. Their hamon tends to be a bit on a weak side with limited expression.

So if its Bizen but clearly a weird one there is a recent tendency to say Wake.

When its shown to someone else they might say instead Aoe or some mainline Bizen smith.

 

Ofcourse if you send it to a drastically different shinsa high chance they'll say Muromachi Kaga. Its not a very distinctive style and therefore "Bungo-Kaga" is a real risk when looking for alternative opinion.

[BKB5]

19 minutes ago, Tcat said:

Use your eyes and your knowledge above any and all papers and certainly above any and all dealer descriptions. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. The photos are there for all to see, and I see no hamon at the tip of the kissaki, and certainly no turnback. Good luck.

I think I am good, Art said boshi is 100% notare and clearly defined in hand. BELOW: -  are pictures of the Wakizashi I got from him a while back - same thing - its real hard to get the boshi hamon in photos.

This Wakizashi blade has a wild hamon extending all the way up and turning back on boshi. Hard for me to photograph in kitchen. The Oshigata below if from the Wakizashi listed along with tip photos.

 

[KungFooey]

Honestly?

I think the koshirae is absolutely exquisite, but the blade ...... meh.

 

As long as you enjoy it, that's the main thing. 
 

Dee

 

PS: Good luck fitting the new tsuba - it's 1mm thicker than the original. 

[2devnul]

@BKB5

 

Hi, congratulations on your purchase! My private opinion below.

 

I love Koshirae except for Tsuba. The one you posted/proposed for swap is way better/nicer. After that Tsuba swap your sword would have one of most beautiful Koshirae's I've ever seen. BTW, is there any Shakudo (Fuchi/Kashira?) on it? I would love to see such Koshirae in my collection, I envy you. 

 

As for the blade, I like it, but wouldn't buy it. Hada is nice, I also see Boshi clearly so I'm bit confused with comments from @Tcat

I'm that amatory collector who like 'fancy' Hamon (Gunome/Choji <3) and more of a Shinto guy. I have only 1 Koto sword in my collection and I think I'm not mature (collector level) enough for it yet.   

 

Still, perfect sword IMHO, to rich for my blood (if I had that money I would be looking for Tadahiro/Tadayoshi work), so I wouldn't buy it. 

 

 

@Tcat what is wrong with that Boshi?

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think Kirill is giving good info on Wake attribution. While I think it is great that NBTHK uses some lesser known attributions, it can be tricky. From Wake basically only Shigenori and Shigesuke are known, and even for them very few signed blades remain.

 

I personally like the bit "loud" hada. I like things I can see easily with my eyes. I feel the koshirae is also quite attractive.

 

One thing I often try to consider is how the sword has been in the original form. If the lower hole would be original it would have been c. 70 cm tachi, however if it is ō-suriage as Aoi and most likely NBTHK think, then it would have been 80+cm tachi. As I really like big old tachi this is something I try to imagine but 80+cm tachi are quite rare to find surviving to this day.

 

 

[atm]

Congratulations @BKB5! I think it is an interesting blade and very nice koshirae. If it were mine, I would not switch out the tsuba since the two-tone tsuba matches the two-tone wari-kogai. Also, if it were my blade, I would ask Aoi Art to arrange for a Tanobe Sensei sayagaki if he agrees with the Wake attribution.

[Tcat]

5 hours ago, 2devnul said:

@BKB5

 

Hi, congratulations on your purchase! My private opinion below.

 

I love Koshirae except for Tsuba. The one you posted/proposed for swap is way better/nicer. After that Tsuba swap your sword would have one of most beautiful Koshirae's I've ever seen. BTW, is there any Shakudo (Fuchi/Kashira?) on it? I would love to see such Koshirae in my collection, I envy you. 

 

As for the blade, I like it, but wouldn't buy it. Hada is nice, I also see Boshi clearly so I'm bit confused with comments from @Tcat

I'm that amatory collector who like 'fancy' Hamon (Gunome/Choji <3) and more of a Shinto guy. I have only 1 Koto sword in my collection and I think I'm not mature (collector level) enough for it yet.   

 

Still, perfect sword IMHO, to rich for my blood (if I had that money I would be looking for Tadahiro/Tadayoshi work), so I wouldn't buy it. 

 

 

@Tcat what is wrong with that Boshi?

 

I cant help but laugh at this red line, but you do you. I hope you don't think that glare from a light source is a turnback...

 

Even in the oshigata, which I have trouble trusting, it runs it riiiiight up to the edge. A thousand miles from your red line.

 

I'm not commenting any more on this thread or this sword without seeing it in hand. The photos in the light are ambiguous at best and seem to show the hamon running off the blade.

[BKB5]

Thank you all so very, very, very much!!!! Yes the korshirae was the "over the top" element that got me past the blade. The blade to me at this point is "somewhat meh" - BUT - I think in hand and with eye it will be quite stunning visually - I think the shape, hada, hamon - and combo with koshirae will be a knock out. I'm learning to try and love more than the wild hamon.

This is a great idea and one I will ask for immidiately -  "Tanobe Sensei sayagaki if he agrees with the Wake attribution"

 

I thought the same thing as Jussi "Man I hope this may have started life as a big huge 80cm Tachi!!!" - I dream to one day see hold one - HA - as few of sword shows as I can attend not likely but maybe see in a museum in Japan one day.

Merry Christmas to all if you celebrate - thank you for all opinions - Here is to a great year of 2025 soon to arrive.

Brad

[nulldevice]

7 minutes ago, BKB5 said:

Thank you all so very, very, very much!!!! Yes the korshirae was the "over the top" element that got me past the blade. The blade to me at this point is "somewhat meh" - BUT - I think in hand and with eye it will be quite stunning visually - I think the shape, hada, hamon - and combo with koshirae will be a knock out. I'm learning to try and love more than the wild hamon.

This is a great idea and one I will ask for immidiately -  "Tanobe Sensei sayagaki if he agrees with the Wake attribution"

 

I thought the same thing as Jussi "Man I hope this may have started life as a big huge 80cm Tachi!!!" - I dream to one day see hold one - HA - as few of sword shows as I can attend not likely but maybe see in a museum in Japan one day.

Merry Christmas to all if you celebrate - thank you for all opinions - Here is to a great year of 2025 soon to arrive.

Brad

The koshirae really is fantastic. I really like the 2 tone theme repeated on the kogai and tsuba. Its a wonderful package overall that I think you'll enjoy.

 

Don't discount a suguha hamon at first glance. Many extraordinary blades I had a chance to see in Japan had a "simple" suguha hamon but really came alive with activity when viewed in the right light. 

[Schneeds]

3 hours ago, Tcat said:

 

I cant help but laugh at this red line, but you do you. I hope you don't think that glare from a light source is a turnback...

 

Even in the oshigata, which I have trouble trusting, it runs it riiiiight up to the edge. A thousand miles from your red line.

 

I'm not commenting any more on this thread or this sword without seeing it in hand. The photos in the light are ambiguous at best and seem to show the hamon running off the blade.

He said Aoi  confirmed it's intact, so in the event it is not that would 100% be grounds for a return and complete refund.  

[2devnul]

16 hours ago, Tcat said:

but you do you

Not sure I understand, what do you mean by that?

 

16 hours ago, Tcat said:

I hope you don't think that glare from a light source is a turnback.

Indeed I did think that. 

 

16 hours ago, Tcat said:

Even in the oshigata

I haven't looked at Oshigata, my mistake. 

 

Thanks for the lesson. 

 

 

EDIT:

@Tcat

Again I'm confused, on Oshigata I also see turn-back of Hamon. 

[Tcat]

8 hours ago, 2devnul said:

Again I'm confused, on Oshigata I also see turn-back of Hamon. 

 

Are you sure?

 

You see *something* and you have attempted another 'wishful-thinking' red line.

 

Forget for a moment the oshigata, simply look at the photos of the blade in the light. Ignore what I would call the cynical placement of the reflective glare from the light - focus instead on the white band of martensite and follow it - What does it do? Does it turn back sharply to make that 180 degree U turn or does it run off the edge like car overshooting a corner on a mountain pass?

 

Just be honest with yourself - and don't make me get out my red pen.

 

 

 

 

[Schneeds]

Quote

Are you sure?

 

You see *something* and you have attempted another 'wishful-thinking' red line.

 

Forget for a moment the oshigata, simply look at the photos of the blade in the light. Ignore what I would call the cynical placement of the reflective glare from the light - focus instead on the white band of martensite and follow it - What does it do? Does it turn back sharply to make that 180 degree U turn or does it run off the edge like car overshooting a corner on a mountain pass?

 

Just be honest with yourself - and don't make me get out my red pen.

 

 

I think the oshigata does clearly show a turn back.  Also it's papered, and AOI has confirmed that the boshi is indeed intact. I'm not sure why you keep implying AOI is being decietful about this?

[Tcat]

49 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

I think the oshigata does clearly show a turn back.

 

Are we looking at the same oshigata? The yakiba just disappears... the oshigata generously shows hataraki at the point it terminates. If present, the boshi appears to be very weak indeed. 

 

Based off the photos I have seen, I see no martensite boshi. The obvious band of martensite which is reflecting light back into the camera lense runs off the fukura.

 

Compare the oshigata in question with the other oshigata + sword shared in this thread which has a very obvious boshi. Note and compare how how each are drawn in the oshigata. Note how each photograph...what do you see?

 

55 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

Also it's papered

 

I have lot to say about this especially after a few drinks but I will simply ask you this - do you believe that a mistake has never been made on a paper? Also, I'm not the type to accept appeals to authority when I am staring straight at something telling me something the contrary.

 

1 hour ago, Schneeds said:

 

AOI has confirmed that the boshi is indeed intact

 

I just take this to be an automatic type of response, and as with the case of papers, honest mistakes can occur.

 

1 hour ago, Schneeds said:

I'm not sure why you keep implying AOI is being decietful about this?

 

That isnt what I am implying... See above, as with the case of papers. Do you believe 'AOI' has never made an honest mistake?

 

This is what I see in the photos - The red line is my most generous take for where I believe the hardening to end. The yellow is closer to what I believe.

 

I'm completely open to chaging my mind about this by looking at the blade in hand. Maybe indeed it is a trick of the light, but I wouldnt 'blindly' trust that it is. That is not because I believe others have malicious intent but rather beacause I know that all people including myself are fallible. Ultimately though, I can only rely on my own judgement, which involves a myriad of factors, when choosing to purchase a sword. I certainly wouldnt purchase one based on an oshigata if I had the choice.

[Schneeds]

4 hours ago, Tcat said:

 Ignore what I would call the cynical placement of the reflective glare from the light - 

 

That would seem to be the implication.

 

Of course mistakes can be made, but when you take the oshigata and the response from AOI into account it would be worse than a mistake at this point.

[Tcat]

7 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

when you take the oshigata and the response from AOI into account it would be worse than a mistake at this point.

 

I dont think the oshigata shows what you think it shows. I'm not callling it dishonest... Just look very carefully to what exactly is depicted rather than what you might hope it implies. Drawing oshigata is indeed an art in and of itself...