An alternative way to construct a tsuba?

[Alex A]

In my humble experience Dan, when looking for answers and finding answers that are "too complicated" just to find an answer, sounds kind of an overly desperate quest for validation. Maybe time throw in the towel

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Alex!

I kind of get what you mean.  But maybe someone with experience in metallurgy can uncomplicate that article for me and dumb it down for my simple mind!

I don't know, maybe it is time to throw in the towel or maybe not!

 

[Shugyosha]

6 minutes ago, Alex A said:

In my humble experience Dan, when looking for answers and finding answers that are "too complicated" just to find an answer, sounds kind of an overly desperate quest for validation. Maybe time throw in the towel

 

Yep - Occam's razor is a thing.

[Brian]

Also, you seem to keep looking for the odd exception to the rule, to prove a pattern.
The fact is that if something could be done, there would always be someone who tried it out of curiosity. Nihonto world is filled with smiths that tried something unusual. Because they would be curious just like any maker of anything. But finding a sword with a sori of 10cm doesn't mean smiths made swords routinely with crazy sori. Finding a tanto made short with shinogi zukuri doesn't mean this was an established style. Just means smiths were curious, and tried things in their spare time. No doubt there's a triangular tsuba out there. Doesn't mean we need to relearn everything we learned about tsuba manufacture methods.
Same goes for anyone who did a cast tsuba in Edo times. No doubt some smith was bored and wondered if it was possible. Does that mean it was a tradition or an accepted method of making tsuba? Nope. Just the exception that proves the rule.
And you can bet your life that if any unusual manufacture method or style was done more than a handful of times..there would be records of that. Books and manuscripts. The Japanese were fastidious in keeping tradition alive and recording everything. There is zero point to looking for those oddities that were just the whim of some random bored maker.

[Spartancrest]

23 hours ago, Brian said:

No doubt there's a triangular tsuba out there. Doesn't mean we need to relearn everything we learned about tsuba manufacture methods.

You bet there are triangular tsuba       https://collections..../item/O462200/tsuba/  [nice one too!]

[Dan tsuba]

Well just as it has been shown that there are triangular tsuba out there, I would like to respond to this part of one of the previous posts above.

It was stated that-

 

“And you can bet your life that if any unusual manufacture method or style was done more than a handful of times..there would be records of that. Books and manuscripts. The Japanese were fastidious in keeping tradition alive and recording everything.”

 

Well here is an interesting article that is available on the internet-

 

“Keeping Knowledge Secret in

Edo-Period Japan”

(1600–1868)

 

Peter Kornicki

(I believe the article was written in 2021)

 

The article can be found at this link-

https://www.jstor.or...table/48647105?seq=1

 

Below is from p. 7 of that article-

 

“This tension between secrecy, trans-mission and financial

gain can be seen in such disparate fields of vernacular

knowledge as the theatrical arts, flower arrangement, the tea ceremony,

landscape gardening, gunnery, and so on. In essence, if you, as an outsider,

wished (and in some cases this is still true today) to acquire any one of

these accomplishments, you had to choose which particular “school” of

swordsmanship, gunnery or flower arrangement you wished to follow. Once

you had joined, then you had access to oral and practical instruction and

ultimately to the manuscript texts which embodied the “secret” knowledge.

All this came at a financial cost, of course: the knowledge had not been

privatised and professionalised for nothing.

    If we were to construct a typology of “secrecy” in Edo-period Japan,

what would be included? Secrecy meant any one or more of the following:

out of sight of the authorities; out of sight of the common people; out of

sight of rivals in the same line of business; protection of family traditions;

protection of economic interests; protection of intellectual property; and

monopoly of political information.”

 

The article was written at the University of Cambridge and of course includes stated references.

 

Well, isn’t that interesting!

Onward!

[Brian]

No, not even remotely interesting. And irrelevant.
They aren't for a second stating the info was never put down in writing, or shared with no-one. Just that you had to be "in" the tradition to have access to it. And this is 2024. That literature is now available.
Stop Googling to try and find scraps of info to turn into a conspiracy. It's getting annoying.

[GeorgeLuucas]

It's important to remember correlation does not imply causation; and not all opinions are created equal. 

Dan, some food for thought. Can you imagine if I persistently told people on the forum with more knowledge than me, even after they tell me otherwise:
"Maybe my sword was made with cast steel, and an alternative hardening method. It has features that I am unable to describe and identify, so it could be RARE, and an example of SECRET KNOWLEDGE."

Because that's how all this sounds. 
Sincerely,
-Sam
 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Sam!

A little off topic here but  you stated-

 

"Maybe my sword was made with cast steel, and an alternative hardening method. It has features that I am unable to describe and identify, so it could be RARE, and an example of SECRET KNOWLEDGE."

 

Well isn't that funny, it so happens I have another thread on that very subject in the Nihonto section!

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/42617-2000-year-old-sword/

[GeorgeLuucas]

Wow, another thread to pull my hair out over. 

Fremdschämen 

[ROKUJURO]

The short text may seem interesting to some, but as far as sword forging in Japan is concerned, it is not correct in parts. I read:

.....Once you had joined, then you had access to oral and practical instruction and

ultimately to the manuscript texts which embodied the “secret” knowledge.

All this came at a financial cost, of course: the knowledge had not been

privatised and professionalised for nothing......

Well, as an interested apprentice, you could not choose a school or a master, but you had to apply for apprenticeship, hoping to be accepted. Additionally, as a young lad, you certainly had no knowledge about sword making schools or differences in techniques.

And learning did not contain manuscript texts or whatever instruction, oral or practical. In the beginning, you were allowed to watch the master and to learn by copying movements and techniques. This has only changed with some smiths in modern times where real teaching is practiced.

Apprentices did not have to pay (as was usual in Europe at that time), but only as an UCHI DESHI they could sleep in the house and were fed by the smith's family. For everything else, they had to rely on support from their own family.   

The only process that was kept secret for outsiders was the temperature of the quenching water in the trough. 

So no, this text part is not well researched and mostly fantasized. 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Jean,

But is this your own opinion (again!)

Please state your references as I have done on this thread and other threads.

Did you even look at the references referred to in the article?

Don't argue with me, argue with the author of the article!

Otherwise, you are just guessing (again!) and fantasizing on our own!

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

6 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Please state your references as I have done on this thread and other threads.

His reference is the article that you, yourself, shared. 

His quote is on page 5, I think
https://www.jstor.or...table/48647105?seq=1

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Sam!

I don't see what you are referring to?

Maybe you can quote that piece of the article?

Jean can answer for himself if he wants.

[GeorgeLuucas]

35 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Please state your references as I have done on this thread and other threads.

Did you even look at the references referred to in the article?

 

https://www.jstor.or...table/48647105?seq=1

 

page 5

 

You asked Jean to state his references. He was referencing the article that you shared, that I linked above. On page 5.

 

But you’re right, he can defend himself, and I’m sure he will if he chooses to.

 

But Dan, your inability to connect the dots is flabbergasting. I think it’s time for me to retire from these fantasy and guesswork threads of yours. 
 

Goodbye Dan, best of luck finding the ghosts you’re looking for. 
-Sam 

[Dan tsuba]

Sam, I don't think you get what I was stating.

What is Jean's reference for this opinion of his?-

 

 

"Well, as an interested apprentice, you could not choose a school or a master, but you had to apply for apprenticeship, hoping to be accepted. Additionally, as a young lad, you certainly had no knowledge about sword making schools or differences in techniques.

And learning did not contain manuscript texts or whatever instruction, oral or practical. In the beginning, you were allowed to watch the master and to learn by copying movements and techniques. This has only changed with some smiths in modern times where real teaching is practiced.

Apprentices did not have to pay (as was usual in Europe at that time), but only as an UCHI DESHI they could sleep in the house and were fed by the smith's family. For everything else, they had to rely on support from their own family.   

The only process that was kept secret for outsiders was the temperature of the quenching water in the trough. 

So no, this text part is not well researched and mostly fantasized. 

 

And Sam, you stated-

"But Dan, your inability to connect the dots is flabbergasting. I think it’s time to retire from these fantasy and guesswork threads of yours. 
 

Goodbye Dan, best of luck finding the ghosts you’re looking for."

 

Sam, I really don't care what you or others think about trying to tell me what I should do or not what to do! 

Goodbye Sam, it has been fun!

 

[ROKUJURO]

This whole thread has nothing to do with TSUBA. It is Kindergarten, and I am out, too.

[Dan tsuba]

Good reaction Jean!

No it is not a Kindergarten, it has come down to a University type thinking with backing your opinions up with stated research and references.

You never could do that.  And because you are Jean we are supposed to take everything you state taken as gospel!

So, you decided to take the easy way out!

Typical.

It is my opinion that you are an anachronism on this forum.

Maybe just time for you to concentrate on your forge, and not this forum?

Onward!

[Dereks]

It is just sad. 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

Jean doesn't have to state references to the above. It is basic common knowledge to anyone who studies Japanese swords and their craft. Something you take for granted that everyone knows. No need to go look for references for something that is part of the foundation of Japanese sword study. Waste of time to prove something that is already commonly accepted by the community.

[Stephen]

22 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

It is my opinion that you are an anachronism on this forum.

Maybe just time for you to concentrate on your forge, and not this forum?

Onward!

We need a FU button, why don't you onward yourself out of here and don't come back there's no need for that juvenile reactions.

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Stephen!

That wouldn't be a FU button.  It would be a FY button!

But I still understand what you mean!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

Now, let's move onward!

[Brian]

Not going to delete the above comments, I should. But let's consider the personal stuff done and dusted please.

[Dan tsuba]

So, here is a tsuba that I am presenting that may have an outer shell of metal on it.

 

What looks of interest to me is that the outer shell covering on this tsuba was not done properly and the craftsman used those areas as part of the motif and even put zogan in them (I think the craftsman may have even smoothed out one of those shell covering areas – on the omote side).

 

Also, as I have stated in a previous post about the motif on these types of tsuba; the motif does not look hand carved but molded into the outer shell.

 

Yes, I may be totally wrong about these tsuba with an outer metal shell covering.

 

But I am not making this stuff up!  I have shown pictures in previous posts about what I am talking about.

 

I also think there is still much that can be learned about how some tsuba were constructed.

 

Every member here talks about what they are interested in.  Well, this stuff interests me!

 

I know it is not a popular subject, and I am putting myself out there for possible ridicule (again!).

 

But that is just part of what goes along with presenting an unpopular subject.

 

Onward!

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

I really wish Ford was still around.
Sigh.

[DirkO]

Sorry Dan, all those recesses are part of the original design. This is a very common way to create a dynamic and depth into the design. Which also explains the zogan. If you like it, that's great! But don't try to make in something that it's not.

[Shugyosha]

Brian,

What Dan is doing is just trolling right? Showing something that’s perfectly obvious and then claiming it’s something it isn’t and then slagging off those who disagree with him? Just a thought. 

[Matsunoki]

Dan, I’m still not sure if you are just taking the piss and trolling us but I will reply.

There is no outer skin on this tsuba. You have a carved scene of people, probably farmers taking buckets of water from a stream. The areas you circle are where the riverbank has been carved in and some simple nunome has been used to suggest the flow of the river with dots to suggest the bank. The figures are carved not moulded. It is just a very simple technique for creating a shallow perspective.…..but I suspect you knew this all along……you’ve looked at and bought enough tsuba to have learned that yes?

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Colin!

I see what you mean and that is what I thought, the zogan was the water. 

That it could be carved, it just looks different to me and that is why I thought it was an outer shell on the tsuba.

And I didn't know that about it being a simple technique.

Yes, I have many tsuba but none that are carved like that!

That is why I brought up the question.

Thanks!

[1kinko]

Obviously, you can construct a tsuba any way your imagination wanders (and despite all informed evidence).

 

But personally I think it's a Republican plot to put god in this thread.