An alternative way to construct a tsuba?

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Thomas, for your opinion about the outer shell of the tsuba being urushi lacquer.

 

But in a previous post here I stated how I used a small sharp knife to try to cut a tiny piece of the covering off the tsuba.  I couldn’t do it, and the blade did not even leave a scratch on the surface.  Then I tried placing the tip of the blade under a small piece of the covering that was already chipped to see if I could remove a tiny piece for magnetic testing.  Well, I couldn’t do that either!

 

And if the covering was urushi, how could the craftsman mold in those pine needle motifs or place in the brass zogan?

 

But let us say you are correct and the outside covering of the tsuba is urushi.

 

Wouldn't that still be an alternative way to construct a tsuba (as the title of this thread suggests)?

[Iekatsu]

Interesting that it can not be removed, perhaps I was wrong. If it was Urushi it would be stubborn, but brittle and would flake off with force applied. As to molding shapes like the pine needles, any shapes and forms can be built up in lacquer, the soft metal elements could also be embedded in it, or be secured to the plate in the normal manor and lacquered around. Urushi being used on Tsuba has a long history, generally as a protective coating but also for decoration, nothing particularly ground breaking.

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Thomas, for some good information!

But let us say this tsuba was coated in urushi (which I have my doubts about) and then the motifs applied onto it.

Have you ever seen a tsuba like this before?

If so, could you please provide pictures?

[Dan tsuba]

So, I was just searching through eBay and found another tsuba that appears to be constructed the same way as my tsuba.

 

It appears to have an inner core of metal and then an outer shell of metal (I don't think it is lacquer).

 

I wonder how many other tsuba may have been constructed in this way?

 

Pictures are attached.

 

Onward!

[Alex A]

Reminds me of a a 1920s dumbbell i have.

 

No outer construction coating method as far as im aware, just one of those things.

[Brian]

18 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

I wonder how many other tsuba may have been constructed in this way?

None.

[Alex A]

Would suggest water has got into pores, corroded,  frozen, expanded and pushed an hole in the surface.

 

Like when your shocks on your car always brake in winter.

 

Its what iron does.

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Alex!

Thanks for your thoughts about the piece and that picture of the dumbbell.

You said-

"No outer construction coating method as far as im aware, just one of those things."

Now, I am only saying this to try and figure out if there actually was an outer shell applied over an inner metal core and what that possible outer metal shell could be constructed of.

Is that dumbbell of yours made of steel or cast iron?

I know.  You are probably saying "oh no, here he goes again"!

But I do find this possible alternative way of constructing a tsuba very interesting!

Thanks!

[Steves87]

Guys, that is clearly missing inlay... they are in the shape of shi shi !!

There is no alternate construction there, just Suemon-zogan that has been lost

[Steves87]

Here is an example (thereabouts) of how it should look with the two shi shi

Edited Saturday at 01:53 PM by Steves87

[Alex A]

Stephen, did consider that, good point.

 

Dan. They are cast and were sat in an outdoor brick toilet at the bottom of my Grand folks garden for many years. They saw many variations in temp and conditions, as old tsuba do.

 

Funnily enough, bumped into a video on youtube about how Japanese houses don't have central heating, apart from one small part of Japan. The guy was saying the houses in old times were murder in winter to keep warm. So if you have old iron like tsuba knocking about, you have to think about what they might of been through.

 

Personally, i think your overthinking it.

[Dan tsuba]

So, Stephen made a good point when he stated-

 

“Guys, that is clearly missing inlay... they are in the shape of shi shi !!

There is no alternate construction there, just Suemon-zogan that has been lost”

 

So, that got me thinking.

 

If that tsuba (first picture shown below) is not showing an alternate construction and it is just missing inlay, then what is the explanation for the possible alternate construction shown of the other tsuba (second picture shown) where there could not have been any inlay placed around the nakago-ana?

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

Dan,

 

Please stop thinking.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, I was thinking again!

 

And Derek (from his post above) can’t stop me from doing that, although he did ask nicely- ha, ha, ha, ha, etc (I crack myself up!).

 

I have included pictures below of 3 of my hand forged tsuba that have missing zogan.

 

The area of the missing zogan on those hand forged tsuba does not look anything like the missing zogan area on the tsuba that I believe has a metal core and a metal shell covering that core (picture of that tsuba again shown in the last picture below).

 

Onward (yes, and I am still thinking!).

 

[Spartancrest]

7 hours ago, Steves87 said:

just Suemon-zogan that has been lost

And it looks like it is not far from losing a boulder as well 

[Dereks]

Dan,

 

See the circled area, that is the exact layer with your first tsuba. On this example, it is corroded nicely, so you don't see the shiny metal.

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Derek,

 

Please stop thinking.

[GeorgeLuucas]

I don’t know Dan, I’ve seen a lot of proposed ideas on this thread, that make more sense than some unknown and mysterious alternative construction method. Even from some very experienced collectors. 
 

I think the onus of proof lies firmly in your hands now.

 

Until then,

onward? 

[Dereks]

I don't need to think, I can see. 

 

Your question was already answered on the first comment but I don't understand why you can't accept it.

 

Working on a new book maybe?  

 

Best.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

O.K. Derek.

The gloves are off!

I tried being nice.

But you won't have anything to do with that!  Do you really want to go there with me?

Can't you see that the picture you posted are tagane-ato punch marks made in the tsuba that have been further corroded.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Your sarcasm is immature.  Why don't you refer to the other pictures I posted?  Comment on them.

Best.

[Dereks]

That further corroded area, that layer, is the same one on your first tsuba! That is the answer to your question. Here, I'll put X on them now. It is not molten iron. Just the upper crust flaked off!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Derek.

But it is my opinion that I think you are incorrect.

You stated "upper crust".  A forged iron tsuba has no upper crust.  It is the same metal throughout the tsuba.

As I stated before, what about the other pictures of the missing zogan I posted?

Comment on them.

Best.

 

 

[Dereks]

There were different ways to forge a tsuba. Some of them have 2-3 layers, with the upper crust being the top layer. Some not folded. Some inlays are applied on a heated plate so it affects upper layer as well.

Two of the tsuba with missing zogan are applied to a prepared area. The other one, with the missing shi shi, is completely different. 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Derek.

Good information, thanks.

You stated-

"The other one, with the missing shi shi, is completely different."

So how do you think that tsuba was made?

Do these tsuba look hand forged to you?

 

 

[Dereks]

Just now, Dan tsuba said:

Hey Derek.

Good information, thanks.

But do these tsuba look hand forged to you?

 

 

 

Yes!

[Dan tsuba]

Oh well,

Maybe we will see what others think about these tsuba.

As always Derek, I thank you for your opinions and posts.

But alternative thoughts about tsuba construction are always a gamble (whether that be cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period or tsuba made with an inner metal core and an outer metal shell).

But it is a gamble I am more than willing to take!

Best.

[Steves87]

Dan, I feel you are hugely dismissive of my opinions, on every one of my opinions.

 

Just so you are aware, I have a background in metals technology that was started from an interest at the age of about 9yo. I have been studying Tsuba (not exclusively) since I was a teenager, and I have tried my hand at making them (with inlays) for about 5 years. I have been collecting authentic Edo Tsuba for over 10 years, and last year (2024) I spent the much of the year with the conservation department at a well known museum, as well as giving advice to history curators on related Tsuba details. I also have a formal education in curation, and I have a proven record of correct object identification through photo images.

Using the correct Australian-Scillian terminology, I feel like a dick head for tooting my own horn, and ill likely never spew this out again... but I do want you to know that I am not an dumb-ass.

 

The original Tsuba of this thread is very very very likely hand made and subsequently, accidentally, been in contact with extreme high temperatures, causing a surface transformation (either through coatings or iron impurities) which has given the appearance of melted (even cast) iron (that is why the pine needles look wierd). The areas that are missing are where this surface transformation has chipped off. Chipped off likely due to oxidisation of the 'still good' iron core. The exposed iron has since been treated to some degree... this is something I have seen on multiple occasions in the conservation departments, and when assessing acquisitions within certain museum departments.

 

I still think you should research cast Tsuba, but start looking at the 'known examples' in all museum collections, versus the date of DONATOR acquisition. 

Edited Sunday at 01:10 AM by Steves87
Incorrect word

[Dan tsuba]

Stephen,

My friend,

I know you are not a dumb-ass!  You have assisted me before and I look forward to your assistance in the future.

And thank you for your advice about researching cast tsuba in the known examples in all museum collections, versus the date of donator acquisition.

But (and there is always that!) I feel the only way to determine anything about a tsuba that I have brought up questions about (whether that be cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period, or tsuba made with a metal inner core and a metal outer shell) is to subject them to non-invasive metallurgical testing.

Otherwise, it is my opinion, everything is just everybody's best guess on what they think they know (me included!)

With respect,

Dan

[Brian]

Sigh. Like beating your head against a wall.
Dan...care to share with us ONE valid reason why any tsuba maker would make a tsuba by covering a metal core with a metal outer shell? Especially on what are essentially low class tsuba made to be cheap and fast?

[Dan tsuba]

Hey boss,

 

So, you said-

“Dan...care to share with us ONE valid reason why any tsuba maker would make a tsuba by covering a metal core with a metal outer shell? Especially on what are essentially low class tsuba made to be cheap and fast?”

 

I don’t know boss; I can’t speak for the tsuba craftsmen.  Maybe some of them just wanted to experiment with different techniques?

 

Anyway, I could be mistaken about what I believe was an outer metal shell on the tsuba (yes, you read that correctly, I could be mistaken – ha, ha, ha, etc!).

 

I found a scientific article with that link shown below-

 

https://www.academia...work_card=view-paper

 

But it is too complicated for me!

 

What I think part of the article is stating is that the patina on some tsuba could have been very thick.

 

So, maybe what I thought was a metal covering on the tsuba just could have been a very thick patina type covering.

 

But then again, on my tsuba with that possible type of outer covering layer I could not cut it, remove it, or even chip a piece off of it with a sharp knife.  And how did the craftsman mold some motifs into that covering?