An alternative way to construct a tsuba?

[Alex A]

It was this line below, im just thinking moisture got under the seppa, for some reason, over time.

 

 "In your case you need to define if there is the possibility that at the interfaces between the two metals there could be water, maybe condensing humidity or rainy water."

 

To me, it don't look like there is any coating on that tsuba, to me, its maybe plausible there has been some kind of reaction there, especially looking at the surface thats left.

 

Though what do i know lol, its just a proposal for folks more knowledgeable to consider it plausible.

 

I can vaguely remember Ford years ago talking about reactions to steel, though cant remember the details.

[jsv]

Here is a photo of another cast tsuba from the book "Tsuba collecting for the  beginner"

 

Also look at the pitting in both tsuba and the weird colour of the ategane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Tony!

 

Thanks for the interesting information.  Much appreciated!

 

But I was just floundering around on the internet again and I found this when I inquired if molten cast iron can be poured onto steel-

 

“AI Overview

 

Learn more

Yes, molten cast iron can be poured onto steel, as long as the steel is properly prepared to withstand the heat and potential thermal shock; however, this is typically done in controlled industrial settings to create specific composite materials or for specialized applications, as the different properties of cast iron and steel can lead to issues like cracking or warping if not managed carefully.

Key points to consider:

 

Temperature difference:

Molten cast iron has a lower melting point than most steels, so the steel must be preheated to a suitable temperature to avoid rapid cooling and potential cracking.

 

Mold design:

When pouring molten cast iron onto steel, a proper mold design is crucial to ensure controlled solidification and prevent uneven stress distribution.

 

Application:

This technique might be used to create a bonded layer of cast iron on a steel component, providing wear resistance or improved surface properties.”

 

Interesting stuff! 

 

I have read that some tsuba craftsmen were like alchemists in how they could mix and fuse different metals!

 

Maybe something like that was done on the tsuba that I have pictured on my previous posts?  Or maybe not?

 

Just guessing here! 

 

But that tsuba does intrigue me and raises questions.

 

I will try to find out more when I receive the tsuba and can take pictures.

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

Hey Dan, 

 

Is this you?

 

https://www.amazon.c...3-1868/dp/B0CTJ4WXHF

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Derek!

Yes!  But don't tell anyone.

Just eliminate your post!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

Onward!

[GeorgeLuucas]

4 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

“AI Overview

AI also supports that iron and steel will flake, especially after corrosion. Seems like the most logical conclusion
 

All the best,

-Sam 

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, Ynot said:

from the book

Hi Tony, not sure if you have access to this book in Swedish?   https://archive.org/.../n1/mode/2up?q=tsuba   A large section of the book concentrates on tsuba.  Most of the images are rather poor but if you send me a PM. I can supply more up to date images.

A little dated but so is    [I should know ]

 

[KungFooey]

On 12/19/2024 at 9:43 PM, Dan tsuba said:

Hello Thomas and Manuel,

 

Thanks for your opinions!

 

But I have never seen a painted tsuba, or one that was heavily lacquered. 

 

I have also not seen a tsuba where the patina has flaked off.

 

Can either of you show pictures of tsuba like that?

 

Thanks!

This has been painted gray, presumably to hide rust.

They forgot to mask off the copper inserts and (presumably) shakudo plug.

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Dee, for the pictures of that painted tsuba!

 

Yep, that tsuba appears to have been painted and the person probably thought it was easier to paint it than clean it!

 

But I don’t think flaking paint is shown on my tsuba (again picture included below).

 

I still think that it shows a flaking of a softer metal that was applied over a harder metal, or some sort of galvanic corrosion.

 

Anyway, the seller hasn’t shipped it to me yet from Japan.

 

When I receive it I will take pictures with my digital microscope and try to figure out what was going on with that tsuba.

 

Onward!

 

 

 

[KungFooey]

Hey Dan,

With all these hundreds of tsuba you buy, no wonder you need a Jeep Gladiator Overland to carry them! 😉

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Dee!

Very interesting!  How did you know I have a Jeep Gladiator Overland?

Before I pass, I will just load up my Jeep with all of my tsuba and other stuff and let one of my kids drive it away!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

[KungFooey]

23 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hey Dee!

Very interesting!  How did you know I have a Jeep Gladiator Overland?

Before I pass, I will just load up my Jeep with all of my tsuba and other stuff and let one of my kids drive it away!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

I'm CIA, Tsuba Division 😉

[KungFooey]

"Anyway, the seller hasn’t shipped it to me yet from Japan."

I think he's having to superglue it back together first. 😉

(Sorry - my bad!)

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!  Happy New Year!

 

Well, I finally received the tsuba from Japan that started this thread.

 

In hand it is very interesting, strange, and weird (the only way to describe it!).

 

So, let me start with the basics.

 

It is 68mm by 62mm and 4mm thick (measurments done with a caliper rounding down to the nearest whole number).  It weighs 93 grams.

 

It has sekigane at the top and bottom of the nakago-ana.  It also shows wear marks from a seppa on the omote side of the tsuba.

So, I am thinking that this tsuba has probably been mounted on a blade more than once.

 

It also has ategane in the kozuka hitsu-ana.  My feeling is that adding ategane to a tsuba is kind of a customization to the piece done at a later time or by another owner.

What is strange about this ategane on this tsuba is that it appears to be a reddish color on the omote side and a silver color on the ura side!

 

The center core of the tsuba appears to be hand forged.  As a side note on the 3rd picture showing the inside of the nakago-ana, the dark area towards the inside of the nakago-ana is a shadow (it is not the outside covering of the tsuba).

 

Also, on the ura side of the tsuba at about the 11 o’clock position on the mimi there appears to be a piece of the outside covering of the tsuba that has chipped off (it does not appear that this occurred because of rust, it just looks like the softer metal covering of the tsuba was chipped).

 

Pictures of everything I described are shown below.

 

So far, I have just taken pictures with my digital camera. 

 

On my next post about this tsuba I will try to take more pictures with my camera and my digital microscope.

 

The tsuba still appears to me that it has a hard metal core and a softer metal covering.

 

Any thoughts and opinions on this piece presented so far would be appreciated!

 

Onward!

 

 

 

[Steves87]

In high school many years ago we learnt about re-heating sand-iron and how it forms a shell... i forget the context of why we learnt this, and I don't care enough today to look into it further (happy new year by the way!) But a quick gpt brings up this: 

Click for clearer image.

So it could be this too...

Edited December 31, 2024 by Steves87
Added

[Dan tsuba]

Happy New Year Stephen!

Wow, you are the man!

That is great information you posted!

And it could very well explain the outer shell on my tsuba!

I will have to study your post more carefully.

I am amazed!

Thank you,

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Wow!

Stephen’s brilliant post with his great research adds a whole new line of inquiry into how some tsuba could have been made!

I find this extremely exciting!

Tomorrow, I will add some more pictures taken with my digital camera and digital microscope to this thread of my tsuba with the hard metal core and the soft metal covering.

You will see what Stephen is referring to in his post and how this technique was accomplished on a tsuba.

Like I stated somewhere on these threads before, some tsuba craftsmen were almost alchemists in how they could mix and re-heat metals!

I think this is entirely new line of research (and has not been brought up before) and is an alternative way to construct a tsuba!

Onward the adventure continues!

 

[Steves87]

Dan, for sure you should explore this... but do not lose sight of the knowledge that fires were very common in Edo Japan...  you will need to prove that this was done purposefully (which I personally do not believe) as opposed to "accidently" caught in fire incidents (which I do believe is the case)

[Dan tsuba]

Stephen,

I have a question.

When you state "you will need to prove that this was done purposefully (which I personally do not believe) as opposed to "accidently" caught in fire incidents (which I do believe is the case)" what are you specifically referring to?

Is it the softer metal covering the harder metal core of the tsuba that was accidently put on the tsuba by being in a fire?   Or is it the chipping off of the softer metal covering the tsuba because it may have been in a fire?

Whatever the case, I believe that a softer metal shell was purposefully put on a harder metal core and motifs were added to the softer metal or placed or glued onto the softer metal shell (specifically the horse and backwards facing rider).

Onward!

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

I like the way this discussion is going. I’m looking forward to your microscope photos, Dan. 
 

I wonder… it looks pretty flakey to me. Did any of that outer material flake off in the packaging? Don’t damage it, but is any loose enough that it falls off? If so, you could see if the outer material is magnetic or not. It looks metal, but is it? 

 

Just some thoughts, 

Carry on, 

-Sam 

[Steves87]

I am doubting the external finish is soft, but instead,very hard and brittle.... as per the info in the second half of the gpt image I shared. The Tsuba example I gave earlier in the thread is like this, some flaked off years ago and it was way harder than the iron interior, to the point that it didnt indent like iron should, but just "snapped"... i wish I had of put a magnet on it back then.

Also, as per that second gpt part, it does make mention of coatings causing an encasement... take the finish look that it mentions with a grain of salt though.

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, to answer the two posts above-

 

Thanks Sam, microscope pictures later today!

I did take a sharp small knife and try to chip off a tiny part of the outer covering of the tsuba by the nakago-ana (ura side of tsuba).

It didn't work.  I could not cut or even place my blade under a piece that was chipped to further chip it and remove even a tiny piece for testing.

So the outer covering on the tsuba may appear that it is easy to remove or is easy to break off, but it isn't!

I also placed a magnet onto the outside shell covering the tsuba.  The magnet sticks to the metal shell.  So the shell covering the tsuba is probably some type of metal.  So I was thinking that what if the outside shell was not made from metal, and the magnet is not sticking to the outside shell but is actually sticking to the inside metal core of the tsuba?  Well, I don't see what the outside shell would be made of other than metal.  It is not paint, and it is not lacquer so my guess is the outside shell of the tsuba is metal.

 

And to Stephen-

Yes, I tend to agree with you that the outer covering of the tsuba is hard and brittle.

And it is definetly some kind of covering or shell on the tsuba.

So far, I tend to think it was formed under #2 of your above post that talks about Oxidation Layers.

I could be wrong, but it is a fun thing to try and figure out!

Onward!

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, as stated in my post above, here are more pictures of my enigmatic tsuba!

 

The first picture shown is a picture taken with my digital camera of the area I wanted to concentrate on.

 

The second picture shown is that same (or approximate) area with a picture taken with my digital microscope.

 

I had to take a picture with my digital camera of the picture I took with the microscope, otherwise the microscope image is too large to download.  Anyway, I think the pictures came out O.K.!

 

Each set of pictures follows that pattern (except for the last series of pictures which shows 2 pictures taken with the digital camera and then 1 picture taken with the microscope).

 

The first picture in this series shows the tsuba flat, but to get a close-up of that area with the microscope I could not take it at the same angle.

 

My thoughts are that there is definitely an outer shell of metal on the tsuba.  I don’t know what type of metal it is, but I do know that cast iron is brittle and will chip, crack and break when struck.

 

I also think that the pine needle motif was not hand carved on the tsuba but maybe molded on to the tsuba when the hard metal shell was poured (?) over the metal core.

 

Also, I think the man facing backwards on his horse motif was not hand carved into the tsuba.  My thoughts are that the figure was pre-made and then attached to the tsuba when the metal covering was still hot.  Or it was attached another way to the tsuba?

 

The attached pictures are of the omote side of the tsuba (except that small chip shown in the 5th and 6th pictures which is on the mimi of the ura side of the tsuba).

 

There are still more pictures to be taken of the ura side and of other parts of the mimi, with my added thoughts about the piece.

 

Anyway, just giving it my best guess here!

 

This is one heck of a strange tsuba!

 

Onward!

 

 

 

[Dereks]

Dan, 

 

I don’t think there’s anything unusual about this tsuba; you might be overthinking it a bit. And, of course, the motif wasn’t hand-carved on the tsuba.

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Derek for your opinions, they are always appreciated!

 

You stated-

“Dan,

I don’t think there’s anything unusual about this tsuba; you might be overthinking it a bit. And, of course, the motif wasn’t hand-carved on the tsuba.”

 

So, let’s talk about what you said about this tsuba not being unusual.

 

I don’t know. 

 

I have ategane in some of my tsuba that appear to be lead.  I have some tsuba with ategane that appear to be copper with a shakudo (black) patina.

 

But I have never seen an ategane like this tsuba has.

 

It is a red color on the omote side.  I can assume that it has some sort of patina on it.

 

But it is a silver color on the ura side with no patina (pictures shown below-again!).

 

Although it is silver in color, it is not silver because it hasn’t tarnished like silver does.

 

So, my thoughts are it is either tin or nickel (which tarnish slower than silver) or a combination of both metals (and yes, in Edo period Japan there were deposits of tin and nickel-but not much).

 

Who was the craftsman that made the ategane for this tsuba (and maybe the tsuba itself)?

 

Was he a Merlin type alchemist in the Edo period of Japan?

 

Also, you stated “And, of course, the motif wasn’t hand-carved on the tsuba.”

 

Well, if the motif wasn’t hand carved on the tsuba then how was it done (and I am referring to the pine needle motif and not the guy looking backwards on the horse).  I mean you couldn't be saying that a tsuba (more than likely made in the Edo period) had motif on it that was molded with the tsuba (or are you saying that?).

 

Remembering that in a previous post here I stated about my tsuba that-

 

“It has sekigane at the top and bottom of the nakago-ana.  It also shows wear marks from a seppa on the omote side of the tsuba.

So, I am thinking that this tsuba has probably been mounted on a blade more than once.

It also has ategane in the kozuka hitsu-ana.  My feeling is that adding ategane to a tsuba is kind of a customization to the piece done at a later time or by another owner.”

 

Anyway, just some more interesting stuff about this enigmatic tsuba!

 

And more pictures and thoughts about the tsuba to be posted later!

 

Onward!

 

 

 

[Dereks]

Most of these motifs attached to tsuba are made of softer metals. They are carved separately first and then soldered onto the tsuba using various techniques.

 

The filling is most likely lead. Lead turns red under certain amounts of heat, or one side may have just been painted with urushi. 

 

Someone may have experimented with this piece recently, as it’s a very low-end tsuba, which makes it perfect for experimentation.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Derek!

 

So, you stated that-

“Most of these motifs attached to tsuba are made of softer metals. They are carved separately first and then soldered onto the tsuba using various techniques.

The filling is most likely lead. Lead turns red under certain amounts of heat, or one side may have just been painted with urushi.

Someone may have experimented with this piece recently, as it’s a very low-end tsuba, which makes it perfect for experimentation.”

 

Thanks for the information.  Lead tetroxide can be reddish or orange (pictures attached below).

 

But the ategane in my tsuba looks nothing like that!

 

Included below are pictures of my tsuba that have lead ategane.

 

They look nothing like the last 2 pictures below of the ategane in my low end tsuba that I have discussed here on this thread (the last 2 pictures attached below).

 

Just some more interesting stuff!  And more pictures of my low end tsuba coming up!

 

Onward!

 

 

[Dereks]

Yours might be paint or urushi as well..doesn't really matter. 

[Dan tsuba]

Alrighty then!

 

Here are the last pictures of the tsuba.

 

They show the ura side.

 

So, if you refer to my posts on this thread you will learn what I have done to this tsuba and see all the pictures I have taken.

 

You will learn the size of the tsuba, the thickness and the weight.

 

You will also be able to figuratively hold it in your hand and notice all the questionable areas that I have referred to.

 

So, what do you think?

 

Could this have been an alternative way to construct a tsuba?

 

All opinions and thoughts are welcome!

 

Onward!

 

[Iekatsu]

Given the clearer photos, I still think it is Urushi (lacquer), Tetsu Sabiji Urushi Nuri, common on armour.