An alternative way to construct a tsuba?

[Dan tsuba]

I found a tsuba listed on eBay that I think may be of interest.

 

I have included pictures of that tsuba below (and those pictures may be misleading because they may have been taken in bad lighting conditions or something else).

 

Also, I don’t know if what I am about to describe is even possible with metal.  I am not a metallurgist.  But I do know that the tsuba craftsman were quite ingenious in what they could do with metal.

 

Now, the tsuba pictured below appears to me that it has at least 2 layers as shown by the pictures of the area around nakago-ana.

 

So, this is what I am thinking (and I could be totally wrong, but it is interesting to try and figure this tsuba out!).

 

It appears that there is an inner layer of metal and then an outer layer of metal.

 

Maybe the inner layer of metal (the lighter looking metal) is hand forged iron?

 

Then the tsuba craftsman dipped the hand forged iron piece (that was already cut with the nakago-ana and hitsu-ana) into molten metal.

 

Of course, that molten metal would probably be cast iron.  But because the tsuba was not cast in a sand mold, the outer appearance would not have that total sand mold grainy type texture.

 

With the molten metal on the outside of the tsuba still hot, the craftsman could have then taken some type of small motif molds (maybe themselves filled with hot metal) and added those motifs to the hot metal on the outside of the tsuba?

 

The tsuba inner layer being of hand forged iron would still make for a very strong tsuba.

 

Cast iron being more brittle than hand forged iron, on this tsuba the outer layer of metal (which may be cast iron) seemed to have broken away from the inner layer of metal (which may be hand forged iron) around the nakago-ana.

 

I know I am probably 100% wrong, but it is an interesting guess!

 

And why is this the only tsuba that I have seen that shows this type(?) of construction?  Why is this the only picture of a possible 2 layer tsuba (something has got to be wrong!)?

 

This tsuba is shown (in the other pictures on eBay not included here) to be about 62mm across the shorter part (measured going across the hitsu-ana), about 4mm in thickness, and about 93grams in weight.

 

This is just my best guess and opinion.

 

Does anyone else have a possible explanation for the appearance of this tsuba?

 

[zanilu]

Multiple layers tsuba as Akasaka tsuba,with two layers of better iron on the outside and and lower grade one in the middle were obtained by forging. Far better and easier way of obtaining a layered structure. 

What you suggest Dale is almost impossible. Molten iron flows like water and do not stick on other iron...

 

What I see in the pictures you posted could be the effect of delamination of a forged and folded tsuba.

No need to invent an involved process...

 

Regards

Luca

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Luca!

 

Thanks for your opinions.  Always appreciated!

 

Your post stated-

 

“Multiple layers tsuba as Akasaka tsuba,with two layers of better iron on the outside and and lower grade one in the middle were obtained by forging. Far better and easier way of obtaining a layered structure.

What you suggest Dale is almost impossible. Molten iron flows like water and do not stick on other iron...

What I see in the pictures you posted could be the effect of delamination of a forged and folded tsuba.

No need to invent an involved process...”

 

So, I tend to agree with you that the tsuba I showed in the pictures of my previous post was hand forged.

 

I don’t think it was folded.

 

I also think that maybe the better iron was in the inside of the tsuba, and the lower grade iron was forged on the outside of the tsuba.

I refer you to this link below- (picture of a delaminated knife blade from that link is shown below).

 

https://www.bladesmi...ion-and-weird-metal/

 

My question is- is there an expert in the field of metallurgy (by that I mean a degreed expert) out there that can shed some light on these previous posts?

 

Onward!

 

[Spartancrest]

7 hours ago, zanilu said:

What you suggest Dale is almost impossible.

 Keep me out of this - I think you mean DAN  

 

Could the tsuba be covered in a thick layer of urushi?

[zanilu]

Sorry Dale! 

 

My mistake!

 

Luca

[Toryu2020]

I think you are looking at an applied patina that has flaked off...

 

-t

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Thomas, for your opinion about the patina on that tsuba.

 

But that patina looks mighty thick for a patina, and it is covering up some of the carved motif (the pine needles or flowers on that tsuba).

 

I don’t know.

 

Like I said in one of my previous posts, the pictures of the tsuba may be misleading (or actually inaccurate).

 

To me, it looks more like the knife blade I showed in a previous post that has a lower quality iron fused onto a higher quality iron (or steel).

 

I think it is just an interesting tsuba that brings up other possible questions.

 

Onward!

 

 

[Iekatsu]

I agree with lacquer, or paint. 

[C0D]

I agree with paint, more than lacquer. Patina doesn't flake off.
An alternative would be fire scale, but the tsuba doesn't look it's been damaged by fire so that's unlikely.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Thomas and Manuel,

 

Thanks for your opinions!

 

But I have never seen a painted tsuba, or one that was heavily lacquered. 

 

I have also not seen a tsuba where the patina has flaked off.

 

Can either of you show pictures of tsuba like that?

 

Thanks!

[Toryu2020]

A tsuba by Hosokawa Tadayoshi - thru fire or other damage you can see the patina has flaked off…

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Thomas, for the pictures!

 

But I am not sure.

 

Your pictures really don’t match up with the tsuba in my initial post.

 

Maybe your pictures show a rusted tsuba that has been cleaned?

 

Or if the patina has flaked off, it just doesn’t appear to be as deep a flaking or as extensive a flaking as the tsuba in my initial post.

 

Do you have any other pictures that would match more closely with the tsuba shown in my first post?

 

Thanks.

 

[goo]

Iron can have grain similar to wood. Maybe it is just delaminating due to neglect or moisture intrusion.   It is possible that the piece was cleaned up after sitting around in bad conditions?

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Gustavo!

Thanks for your opinioins.

But I am not sure which piece you are referring to in your post.

Is it my initial picture of the tsuba on this post?  Or is it the picture that Thomas posted?

Because when you stated "Maybe it is just delaminating due to neglect or moisture intrusion" that would mean that there may be two different metals involved in the tsuba shown in my original post (harder iron and softer iron or whatever!).

Just giviing it my best guess!

Onward!

[Steves87]

Dan, I can promise you that Thomas and Manuel are correct. It is an applied finish (not metalic) that has been burnt (or 'cooked') unintentionally onto the metal plate. When the metal starts to corrode (below), it pushes the accidentally baked/cooked finish off the corroding metal plate.

I admire your quest for cast Tsuba, but this particular thread will not add to the supporting evidence, if this is where you were heading (maybe you were not?)

The base metal of the Tsuba in your original post has been cleaned or stabilised.... and with a mix of light/photo settings/conditions, makes it appear different to those subsequent provided images

 

At the bottom this page is some other images of the same guard with different lighting https://rollingbrook...copy-of-project-08-5

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Stephen, for the pictures and information, much appreciated!

 

You staterd-

“I admire your quest for cast Tsuba, but this particular thread will not add to the supporting evidence, if this is where you were heading (maybe you were not?)”.

 

Thanks very much for admiring my quest, that made me smile!

 

But that is not where I am going with this thread.

 

Although your pictures appear something like the tsuba in my initial post, they still leave some interesting questions to be asked!

 

Anyway, I went ahead and purchased the tsuba in my first post (I figured it needed a good home!).

 

I will use it as a study piece, and then it will be placed on the wall with my other tsuba.

 

I should receive it in about 2 weeks (from Japan).  When I get it, I will take better pictures of it (maybe even some under a microscope with an attached digital camera set up – yes, I have that but I don’t know if I can set it up on my newer computer!).   Then I will post the pictures on this thread.

 

Anyway, I just think this baked on (?) finish is interesting to figure out.

 

You also stated-

“It is an applied finish (not metalic) that has been burnt (or 'cooked') unintentionally onto the metal plate. When the metal starts to corrode (below), it pushes the accidentally baked/cooked finish off the corroding metal plate.”

 

I don’t think the tsuba craftsmen did anything unintentionally.  But I will see when I receive the piece.   Maybe you are correct, nothing to figure out and I will add it to my collection!

 

Onward!

 

 

[goo]

13 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hi Gustavo!

Thanks for your opinioins.

But I am not sure which piece you are referring to in your post.

Is it my initial picture of the tsuba on this post?  Or is it the picture that Thomas posted?

Because when you stated "Maybe it is just delaminating due to neglect or moisture intrusion" that would mean that there may be two different metals involved in the tsuba shown in my original post (harder iron and softer iron or whatever!).

Just giviing it my best guess!

Onward!

Hello Dan, I should have been specific. I was referring to the initial pics you posted showing layers at the edges of the nakago ana.    I don't know how to copy and paste photos off Google on my phone.   You can do an image search using the terms like "delaminating iron". Iron like wood has grain. This happens during the refining process .   The iron bloom is pulled from the fire and then forged to push out the slag.  Some of the slag is trapped forming layers or grain. you will see examples of iron that has separated along the grain of you do an image search.   If you have conserved items pulled out of the ocean, soil or lain neglected, after they are cleaned up, they look to me like the first pictures you posted. Good luck keep up the good work 👍 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Gustavo!

 

I particularly liked it when you stated, “keep up the good work”.

 

I also got on the internet, like you suggested, and saw some pictures of delaminated iron.

 

There was a really good image of steel delamination that I couldn’t post here because it is copyrighted.

 

So, I have included the link below-

 

https://www.alamy.co...-image222898758.html

 

Now, that shows something similar (I think) to the tsuba shown in my initial post.

 

Although, I think there are still some interesting questions that could be brought up about that tsuba.

 

We will see when I receive the piece and have a chance to get it in hand.

 

Thanks, and onward!

 

[Dan tsuba]

 

O.K., maybe you can teach this old dog new tricks!

 

So, I was looking around on eBay and found a tsuba that I think has patina that has flaked off it or been worn off.

 

I have included pictures below with the areas of the flaked off patina circled in red.

 

My question is – is that patina that has flaked off?

 

Or is it something else?

 

If it is patina that has flaked off, that patina must be as thick as a light coat of paint.  And if the craftsman applied something like that, wouldn’t it mess with the fine detailing of the carving on the tsuba?

 

Out of all the tsuba I have, and I lost count at about 150, none of them shows what must be a thick patina to have worn off like the one shown in the below pictures.

 

Does anyone have pictures of a tsuba in good condition with a thick patina?

 

Is there such a thing?

 

Or is the tsuba in the below pictures showing something different?

 

I don’t know!

 

Thanks, and onwards!

 

[Dereks]

Hello Dan,

 

There were many different patination methods, each using unique formulas. Additionally, some tsuba were painted with urushi . If you look at the flowers on top, you might notice they are covered with something. This suggests the tsuba was likely rusted, and the surface was coated with paint or urushi to protect it. The flaked-off parts you see are likely a combination of the rusted layer and the paint.

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Derek!

 

Thanks for the information.

 

Found urushi on the internet-

 

"Urushi" (漆) in Japanese means "lacquer," specifically referring to the natural sap from the urushi tree which is used to create a highly durable, glossy coating in traditional Japanese crafts; essentially, it's the Japanese word for lacquerware made from this tree sap.”

 

Hey, who are you calling a sap!  Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc. (I crack myself up!).

 

Spartancrest did mention the possibility of urushi in his first post to this thread.

 

I am still interested if anybody has pictures of a tsuba with urushi or a thick patina.

 

Anyway, bought myself a newer digital microscope that will magnify from 10 to 200X (only about $45.00 with shipping) that will work on my newer laptop.  Can’t wait to get the tsuba shown in my original post here and post pictures of the delamination, or whatever it is!

 

Onward!

[Toryu2020]

Daisho tsuba - lacquer exterior iron core…

 

[Steves87]

Also, have a look at the other thread by Peter (BIG) for traditional inlay... although not Tsuba examples, these videos show the application of coverings post tannin process.

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50876-traditional-inlays/#comment-530222

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Thomas and Stephen!

 

So, first to Stephen.

 

Yep, I already viewed that video about inlay.  It was very interesting!

 

Now to Thomas.

 

Very nice daisho tsuba that has been lacquered.  Wow!

Do you have any pictures of a lacquered tsuba that has motif carved on it?

 

I would find that very interesting to view pictures of a tsuba with a raised motif that has urushi on it.

 

Onward!

 

[Spartancrest]

https://www.antikeo....1868-90691#gallery-1

 

https://onlineonly.c...ood-tsuba-612/224816

 

 

https://www.espace4....acquered-mount-fuji/

 

[Toryu2020]

Dan I would read thru this thread...

 

[Alex A]

Interesting thread, when reading, for some reason i keep getting cravings for chocolate coated biscuits.

 

Anyways, what i find interesting is where the issue is on the the Tsuba Dan presented at the beginning.

 

Just a thought, could this be down to a reaction between steel and a copper seppa?. Reading online as dont really know what im talking about, folks are saying that when copper and steel are in close contact there can be issues with corrosion under the right circumstances.

 

Though then i wonder why we don't see it more often.

 

Just another thought.

 

Ive pulled this up, perhaps it was sat on a sword in a damp area, dunno

Reaction between copper and reinforcing steel - Corrosion engineering | Eng-Tips

 

[ROKUJURO]

The phenomenon is called galvanic corrosion.

[Alex A]

Thats it Jean.

 

It was the 2nd picture down, appears to be flaking off in line with where the seppa sat.

 

Maybe its plausible, dont know.

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks Alex and Jean!

 

Now that is interesting.  A galvanic reaction (corrosion).

 

This is part of an article that Alex referred me to with his link in his post-

 

“When you connect two dissimilar metals, you can have what is called galvanic or bimetallic corrosion due to the different electrochemical potential of the materials.

In order to have corrosion you need to have an electrolyte in which the two metals are immersed. The electrochemical potential depends on the type of electrolyte, eg in sea water is different from potable water.

Copper and Carbon steel, the reinforcing steel are usually a carbon steel materials, if connected and immersed in an electrolyte will give you galvanic corrosion, copper will be cathodic and not corroding while carbon steel will be anodic and corroding.”

 

So, why is there more delamination on the omote side of the tsuba shown in the original post on this thread than on the ura side?

 

Well, maybe it could be because the omote side of the iron tsuba is attached to the blade by a copper seppa and that seppa rests against the tsuba and tsuka.  Now the tsuka would apply more pressure over a larger area on the omote side of the tsuba than the ura side of the tsuba which is attached to the blade using a copper seppa which rests against the smaller pressure area side of the habaki and the tsuba.

 

So, when the galvanic reaction occurred, it would occur over a larger area of the omote side of the tsuba than the ura side of the tsuba?

Just as shown in the tsuba in the original post (pictures included again below for easy reference).

 

But then again, as Alex stated-

“…...that when copper and steel are in close contact there can be issues with corrosion under the right circumstances.

Though then i wonder why we don't see it more often.”

 

Anyway, just some more interesting stuff.

 

We will see when I receive the tsuba and get it in hand!

 

Onward!