Is it worth getting?

[nihon]

https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-token/

 

Looking at this piece I went down a rabbithole about awataguchi swords and smiths. Though I maybe new to this hobby I know that this is definitely a rare and value piece in any collector's collection. I'm currently in Japan to see the sword in person but i have 2 questions.

First, should I go for it?

Second, how rare are awataguchi swords in the market.

[David Flynn]

The main question is, do you like it?

[Lewis B]

Certainly a rare piece. The kirikomi could possibly divide opinion given its location and severity. If it was on the mune or the blade was attributed to a big name with Mei and I would be a little more forgiving. Personally I would pass but only because the blade strike extends beyond the hamon. Let us know what you decide. 

 

Read some of the excellent threads on kirikomi and their impact in the market, like this one

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/20392-does-kirikomi-add-to-or-detract-from-a-swords-value/#comment-208730

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, nihon said:

https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-token/

 

Looking at this piece I went down a rabbithole about awataguchi swords and smiths. Though I maybe new to this hobby I know that this is definitely a rare and value piece in any collector's collection. I'm currently in Japan to see the sword in person but i have 2 questions.

First, should I go for it?

Second, how rare are awataguchi swords in the market.

 

You don’t sound ready to own an Awataguchi sword … Study more and when ready then buy such a sword. When you have attained that knowledge, you will know whether to buy it or not. 

 

 

 

In any case, per the NBTHK this is “only” Awataguchi, but the Honami sayagaki (as homework, identify which Honami this is, his sayagaki are here on this forum) gives it to Hisakuni (the Awataguchi with most refined jiba). 
The setsumei, notwithstanding, specifically mentions that “the deki of the jiba are excellent”

[Jacques D.]

Do you know why you want to buy this sword? 

[CSM101]

Awataguchi.

 

Well, I tell you a little story. At the last DTI you could see two tanto. Both signed Kuniyoshi. One with Juyo and 12 Mio. Yen, the other TokuJu and 25 Mio. Yen. The second one you can find in the catalogue on page 49. The quality was amazing and in my eyes it was the best sword at the DTI. But this is just a single opinion and should not be taken too serious.

 

And now you can put the sword into perspective. A signed tanto with Juyo = 12 Mio. Yen compared to an unsigned tachi with a flaw = 6 Mio. Yen. 

 

Between Juyo and Tokubetso Juyo were lightyears in quality.

[Gakusee]

3 minutes ago, CSM101 said:

Awataguchi.

 

Well, I tell you a little story. At the last DTI you could see two tanto. Both signed Kuniyoshi. One with Juyo and 12 Mio. Yen, the other TokuJu and 25 Mio. Yen. The second one you can find in the catalogue on page 49. The quality was amazing and in my eyes it was the best sword at the DTI. But this is just a single opinion and should not be taken too serious.

 

And now you can put the sword into perspective. A signed tanto with Juyo = 12 Mio. Yen compared to an unsigned tachi with a flaw = 6 Mio. Yen. 

 

Between Juyo and Tokubetso Juyo were lightyears in quality.

Uwe

I think this is priced so cheaply because of the hakobore…

Also Kuniyoshi has a rather different style to Hisakuni. Different tastes and activities and so on. 

[Lewis B]

3 hours ago, CSM101 said:

Awataguchi.

 

Well, I tell you a little story. At the last DTI you could see two tanto. Both signed Kuniyoshi. One with Juyo and 12 Mio. Yen, the other TokuJu and 25 Mio. Yen. The second one you can find in the catalogue on page 49. The quality was amazing and in my eyes it was the best sword at the DTI. But this is just a single opinion and should not be taken too serious.

 

And now you can put the sword into perspective. A signed tanto with Juyo = 12 Mio. Yen compared to an unsigned tachi with a flaw = 6 Mio. Yen. 

 

Between Juyo and Tokubetso Juyo were lightyears in quality.

Thats TokoJu is described as a kodachi. Hard to see the jihada or hataraki, but it appears to have utsuri. Perfect condition though as you would expect.

[KungFooey]

Hi, 

 

With all respect, your question sounds a bit like "I've just passed my driving test - should I buy this 1906 Rolls Royce Silver Ghost with a huge, irreparable dent in the fender?"

 

Why do you really want it?

Will you be able to live with the dent after the honeymoon period?

Can you look after it as it deserves, without inflicting any more damage?

 

Just my thoughts as this is way out of my league!

 

Dee

[Mark S.]

And another important question that doesn’t get asked enough, “Are you buying it for us or for you?”  

[atm]

There is a lot to like about that blade, in my opinion. It would be one of the three I would want to look at if I were visiting Aoi Art with that budget. But as others have stated, you have to ask yourself why you want this particular blade, especially if you have that much money to spend. I think Kirikomi are neat, if they really are battle damage, but how can anyone say for certain? And not everyone appreciates kirikomi.

[Matsunoki]

The price already puts the sword into a niche very rarified market. The presence of the Kiri Komi puts it into an even more niche market where many will be put off no matter how rare/fine the sword is.

Have you looked at what other swords  are available at that money?

Would you be concerned at the ease of resale or the resale value with that damage?

What value do you put on the “romance” of unproven speculative battle damage?

Opinions will vary but technically that is a fatal flaw albeit it on a serious piece of history.

Walk around this decision and look at it from all angles, don’t spend this sort of money with rose tinted glasses on.

Just an opinion. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am not an art sword connoisseur, so my view will be incorrect when compared to high level collecting.

 

To me that sword is uninspiring and I feel the only reason I see for the price and Jūyō status is that it was attributed to Awataguchi school. It is extremely narrow and tiny tachi with shallow sori, pretty much the opposite that I personally like. Of course that will make my view skewed and also shows my lack of understanding of quality. I do admit I don't understand Awataguchi. I have seen some of the top level Awataguchi in Japanese Museums/Shrines etc. some are absolutely amazing and some are unfortunately not that great in my personal opinion. I believe part is due to my lack on understanding of miniature details as that is personally not that interesting to me. It might be slightly different if seen this Jūyō 28 sword in person but seeing it in person wouldn't alter my feelings about not liking the size and shape of the sword, and for me they are the most valuable criteria for the sword.

 

For mumei swords I personally want to think if I like the sword regardless of the attribution. Unfortunately for many top school attributions I am not liking the blades as much as I should. I would be much happier with a tachi or katana from much "weaker" school that is to my liking than owning an item I don't like just because it has prestige in attribution.

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I am not an art sword connoisseur, so my view will be incorrect when compared to high level collecting.

 

To me that sword is uninspiring and I feel the only reason I see for the price and Jūyō status is that it was attributed to Awataguchi school. It is extremely narrow and tiny tachi with shallow sori, pretty much the opposite that I personally like. Of course that will make my view skewed and also shows my lack of understanding of quality. I do admit I don't understand Awataguchi. I have seen some of the top level Awataguchi in Japanese Museums/Shrines etc. some are absolutely amazing and some are unfortunately not that great in my personal opinion. I believe part is due to my lack on understanding of miniature details as that is personally not that interesting to me. It might be slightly different if seen this Jūyō 28 sword in person but seeing it in person wouldn't alter my feelings about not liking the size and shape of the sword, and for me they are the most valuable criteria for the sword.

 

For mumei swords I personally want to think if I like the sword regardless of the attribution. Unfortunately for many top school attributions I am not liking the blades as much as I should. I would be much happier with a tachi or katana from much "weaker" school that is to my liking than owning an item I don't like just because it has prestige in attribution.

The issue perhaps, Jussi, is that you like oversized swords, which at that size might not necessarily be the most refined? I have seen very few large swords that have the fine jigane and complex high quality hamon I like….Usually the longer and larger, the less interesting to me, unless they are ubu zaimei top Heian or Kamakura blade by one of the better smiths - usually top (ko) Bizen. 
The best sword in my view is the OKanehira. Huge, but with the finest craftsmanship from top to bottom. So, I attach a few snaps of it. There is not forging flaw over 80cm+, very wide and meaty blade - sprinkled with konie in the “wettest” possibly way 

[Rivkin]

Honami Nishu loved writing sayagaki to big names...If it was ko Bizen it was at least Tomonari, if Naminohira it was Yukiyasu, if Sairen - Bungo Yukihiro.

More optimistic than green papers.

Otherwise... there is unfortunately not much to be seen in photos. Suppposedly it has great jigane, which maybe true, but the photographs do not present any evidence.

[CSM101]

Then something for Jussi to like: Osafune Kagemitsu - Odachi

[CSM101]

And for a better understanding Awataguchi Yoshimitsu - Meibutsu Atsushi Toshiro  Kokuho

[Gakusee]

1 hour ago, CSM101 said:

And for a better understanding Awataguchi Yoshimitsu - Meibutsu Atsushi Toshiro  Kokuho

I will play. 
 

Nabeshima Toshiro Meibutsu  

[nihon]

13 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Honami Nishu loved writing sayagaki to big names...If it was ko Bizen it was at least Tomonari, if Naminohira it was Yukiyasu, if Sairen - Bungo Yukihiro.

More optimistic than green papers.

Otherwise... there is unfortunately not much to be seen in photos. Suppposedly it has great jigane, which maybe true, but the photographs do not present any evidence.

I just saw the sword in person. I agree, the pictures don't do the sword justice. I would put up pictures but they exceed the max file size for posting and I could not get a clear enough picture for the jigane

[CSM101]

Question is: are you still interested in buying it?

[nihon]

I saw 2 other sword one by shikkake and another by ryumon so I'm still deciding

[Jussi Ekholm]

Michael you know me too well

 

I think pictures by you and Uwe kind of hit the point that I was after. Some of the Awataguchi blades are just amazing quality. I still remember seeing the famous Nakigitsune at Tokyo National Museum 7 years ago, spectacular sword. Then on the contrary I have seen the Kuniyasu tachi that NBTHK owns now 2 years in a row and I don't like that one too much. Then again Futarasan-jinja has a splendid tachi by quite unknown Awataguchi smith Kunisada. And this summer at Kawagoe meeting there was a very refined mumei Awataguchi ken for viewing, granted I might not have guessed Awataguchi but extremely refined hada was first thing that I remember. Definately not my type of item in general but I can understand the prestige and why people judge such worksmanship so highly. I think there can be also wide range in the work of even the top smiths. I remember seeing the Nabeshima Tōshirō this year and it is very refined work. However in 2023 I got to see Hakata Tōshirō at Tokyo National Museum and to be honest without having the signature and description I would not had guessed Awataguchi on that one. Funny thing is they are items 47 & 48 in Swords of Kyoto book.

 

 

[reinhard]

Owning a true Hisakuni-blade is among the most desireable ideas in the world of Nihon-To.

Without seeing the blade in hand it is very difficult to estimate its qualities and minor defects.

There is a big flaw though easily to see and, fair enough, declared by Aoi-art:

The massive chip in the cutting edge.

Can you live with that flaw?

It will not go away as time passes by and you will never be able to overlook it.

This is what makes the blade quite cheap compared to flawless Hisakuni-work.

 

reinhard

 

 

 

 

[Lewis B]

Jedediah, since you saw the blade in person were you able to see this feature. Could this be a further fracture extending up from the Ha to the shinogi-ji (it's clearer in AOI's images)? It passed Juyo in 1981 but there is no mention or image of the massive kirikomi in the Zufu. Is it possible the damage was sustained after 1981? Would the stricter Shinsa today mean this type of damage would prevent it getting higher than TH papers?

[Matsunoki]

13 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Could this be a further fracture extending up from the Ha to the shinogi-ji

Good spot!!  I’d start walking. 

[Alex A]

Im assuming the cut was probably the last time it was used as a sword.

 

I would certainly put it on the shelf.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lewis B]

12 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Im assuming the cut was probably the last time it was used as a sword.

 

 

 

Which could have been yesterday. Tsuruta san is very astute and the papers say Awataguchi and not Hisakuni so they don't have a clear attribution to a specific maker, despite the sayagaki. For me this would be a blade to appreciate but not own.

[Alex A]

Its all personal preference .

 

No disrespect to OP, but if you need to ask, and especially on high price items.

 

You should hang on until you know for yourself.

 

Otherwise you might buy something you later regret buying.

[nihon]

Update: I have decided not to get the sword mainly due to the lack of budget.

[vajo]

Is it worth?

Others would say hey its damned old. 

It was the time of the third crusade.